The word 'olam'

[Persuaded]

There's no "olam" in Mark 9:43-45:

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Never quenched, is not quenched, never quenched.

If this gahenna is never quenched, it seems pretty likely that the geographical location near Jerusalem which will be holy unto the Lord, isn't the same place.

[dscapp]

 

 

Actually that is exactly what it means.  You are trying to push a metaphor too far.

 

Here is another example:

 

And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell (Gehenna)

(Jas 3:6)

 

There is no way that verse can be taken to be referring to the valley of Hinnom.

 

(This is simply saying that there will be fire in Gehenna, it doesn't specify the location and the duration) - Matt 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

 

(This is simply saying where to throw out your sinful parts, it doesn't specify the location and the duration) - Matt 5:29-30 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

(This is simply saying that your body and soul both can be destroyed in Gehenna. It doesn't specify the location, but it does specify the duration. Destroy is to destroy) - Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

(This is simply saying that you will go down to Hades. Hades is not Gehenna. Hades is the abode of the dead and the grave in which all people go too after they die awaiting judgment) - Matt 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

 

(I have no idea what this passage has to do with anything we're discussing) - Matt 18:19 "Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

 

(This is simply stating the condition of the heart, using hell as a metaphor to describe the Pharisee. It doesn't specify the location and the duration) - Matt 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

 

(This is simply stating the place of condemnation which is Gehenna, it doesn't specify the location and the duration) - Matt 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

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Matt. 5:22, 29, 30, Matt. 10:28, Matt. 23:15, 33 is describing what Gehenna represents. I'm describing where Gehenna is located.

 

Thank you for making my point.   As I said, and you have acknowledged, Jesus isn't speaking to a specific geographical location in those verses.  Thanks for the help

 

 

What exactly are you getting out of Jer 31...

 

Jer 31:38-40

38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever."

 

That is talking about the millennial period prior to the New Heavens and New Earth.

 

 

Again, just because they are not speaking of a location doesn't mean a location doesn't exist in the Bible.

 

In regards to Jer 31:38-40, if it's speaking of the millennial period only....then why does verse 40 say, "It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever."

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Again, just because they are not speaking of a location doesn't mean a location doesn't exist in the Bible.

 

I didn't say the location doesn't exist in the Bible.   I am saying that you can't just take the word Gehenna every time it appears in the Bible and assume it is talking about the geographical location of the valley of Hinnom.   The texts I presented simply don't allow for us to make that assumption

 

In regards to Jer 31:38-40, if it's speaking of the millennial period only....then why does verse 40 say, "It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever."

 

 

Because it won't be.   The city and the gates will not exist in the New Heavens and New Earth.  All that we know now will cease to be.   So this is before the New Heavens and New Earth.  There are not going to be dead bodies on the ground during the New Heavens and New Earth.  This is describing the millennial period because it is in the context of the physical restoration of Israel which will not be complete until the start of the Millennial reign of Christ.

[dscapp]

I am saying that you can't just take the word Gehenna every time it appears in the Bible and assume it is talking about the geographical location of the valley of Hinnom.

 

Why not? Why can't we match Gehenna with the valley of Hinnom, since scripture tells us that is in fact the location is the Hebrew word for hell. Hell is the English translation, Gehenna is the Hebrew.

 

Because it won't be.   The city and the gates will not exist in the New Heavens and New Earth.  All that we know now will cease to be.   So this is before the New Heavens and New Earth.  There are not going to be dead bodies on the ground during the New Heavens and New Earth.  This is describing the millennial period because it is in the context of the physical restoration of Israel which will not be complete until the start of the Millennial reign of Christ.

 

Ok so if this place will be holy before the Lord then Isa. 66:22-24 is speaking of a picture metaphor in regards to the fire burning out.

 

Notice the title of Isa 66:15 is the 'Final Judgment and Glory of the Lord'. This says FINAL. http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/isaiah/66.html

 

Lastly, doesn't judgment for nonbelievers occur AFTER the millennium.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

I am saying that you can't just take the word Gehenna every time it appears in the Bible and assume it is talking about the geographical location of the valley of Hinnom.

 

Why not? Why can't we match Gehenna with the valley of Hinnom, since scripture tells us that is in fact the location is the Hebrew word for hell. Hell is the English translation, Gehenna is the Hebrew.

Do you understand the difference between word meaning and word usage?   Do you understand the concept of metaphors?  

 

 

Ok so if this place will be holy before the Lord then Isa. 66:22-24 is speaking of a picture metaphor in regards to the fire burning out.

 

Notice the title of Isa 66:15 is the 'Final Judgment and Glory of the Lord'. This says FINAL. http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/isaiah/66.html

 

Lastly, doesn't judgment for nonbelievers occur AFTER the millennium.

 

 

I said the passages in Matthew were using a metaphor.  I didn't say that about Isa. 66:22-24.   Yes, judgment for nonbelievers occurs after the Millennium and they will go into the lake of fire.

[dscapp]

Do you understand the difference between word meaning and word usage?   Do you understand the concept of metaphors?  

 

I said the passages in Matthew were using a metaphor.  I didn't say that about Isa. 66:22-24.   Yes, judgment for nonbelievers occurs after the Millennium and they will go into the lake of fire.

 

Try again, because I ain't convinced of nothin.

 

Jer 31:38-40

38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever."

 

Isa. 66:22-24 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. 23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. 24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Do you understand the difference between word meaning and word usage?   Do you understand the concept of metaphors?  

 

I said the passages in Matthew were using a metaphor.  I didn't say that about Isa. 66:22-24.   Yes, judgment for nonbelievers occurs after the Millennium and they will go into the lake of fire.

 

Try again, because I ain't convinced of nothin.

 

Jer 31:38-40

38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever."

 

Isa. 66:22-24 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. 23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. 24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

 

Both of those passages are referencing the millennial period.   Isa 66 isn't talking about the new heavens and new earth.   Isaiah is comparing the perpetuity of the new heavens and new earth with the perpetuity of Israel's future offspring.  Read verse 22 carefully it is only making a comparison.   There will no moon in the new heavens and new earth so v. 23 cannot referencing that eternal time period.

[other one]

 

 

Do you understand the difference between word meaning and word usage?   Do you understand the concept of metaphors?  

 

I said the passages in Matthew were using a metaphor.  I didn't say that about Isa. 66:22-24.   Yes, judgment for nonbelievers occurs after the Millennium and they will go into the lake of fire.

 

Try again, because I ain't convinced of nothin.

 

Jer 31:38-40

38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever."

 

Isa. 66:22-24 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. 23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. 24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

 

Both of those passages are referencing the millennial period.   Isa 66 isn't talking about the new heavens and new earth.   Isaiah is comparing the perpetuity of the new heavens and new earth with the perpetuity of Israel's future offspring.  Read verse 22 carefully it is only making a comparison.   There will no moon in the new heavens and new earth so v. 23 cannot referencing that eternal time period.

 

I never thought of that......   no moon.......     how could I miss that knowing there will be no dark.....

[Butch5]

 

 

 

Do you understand the difference between word meaning and word usage?   Do you understand the concept of metaphors?  

 

I said the passages in Matthew were using a metaphor.  I didn't say that about Isa. 66:22-24.   Yes, judgment for nonbelievers occurs after the Millennium and they will go into the lake of fire.

 

Try again, because I ain't convinced of nothin.

 

Jer 31:38-40

38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever."

 

Isa. 66:22-24 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. 23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. 24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

 

Both of those passages are referencing the millennial period.   Isa 66 isn't talking about the new heavens and new earth.   Isaiah is comparing the perpetuity of the new heavens and new earth with the perpetuity of Israel's future offspring.  Read verse 22 carefully it is only making a comparison.   There will no moon in the new heavens and new earth so v. 23 cannot referencing that eternal time period.

 

I never thought of that......   no moon.......     how could I miss that knowing there will be no dark.....

 

But note that it is speaking of the city, not the new heavens and new earth

[dscapp]

 

 

Do you understand the difference between word meaning and word usage?   Do you understand the concept of metaphors?  

 

I said the passages in Matthew were using a metaphor.  I didn't say that about Isa. 66:22-24.   Yes, judgment for nonbelievers occurs after the Millennium and they will go into the lake of fire.

 

Try again, because I ain't convinced of nothin.

 

Jer 31:38-40

38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever."

 

Isa. 66:22-24 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. 23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. 24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

 

Both of those passages are referencing the millennial period.   Isa 66 isn't talking about the new heavens and new earth.   Isaiah is comparing the perpetuity of the new heavens and new earth with the perpetuity of Israel's future offspring.  Read verse 22 carefully it is only making a comparison.   There will no moon in the new heavens and new earth so v. 23 cannot referencing that eternal time period.

 

 

Who exactly are these dead bodies in Jer 31:38-40 and Isa 66:22-24 if judgment occurs after the millennium.