Endtime Layout

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Therefore I have NO DOUBT that the entire 70th week is still ahead of us. I have a GREAT advantage, for God Himself instructed me in this exact area. If God believes it is, that is good enough for me.

 

LAMAD

 

 

For the purpose of bible discussions its better to show your evidence from the bible. Even Jesus used this scriptural approach. So I don't find your last point compelling whatsoever, despite being sure that in other areas God would communicate with you directly.

 

Paul used his own personal testimony, even before kings. I certainly will not deny what really happened.

God spoke to me about this very subject and left no doubt that in HIS mind, the entire 70th week is still future, being "clearly marked" in the book of Revelation.

LAMAD

 

 

Well LAMAD your "clear markings" are subject to interpretation.  The period of the last few trumpets more logically overlaps the tribulation than precedes the tribulation. 

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become

    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

The kingdom of Jesus occurs at the second coming, and so the 7th trumpet is the second coming, and the 6th trumpet (the two witnesses) occurs just before the second coming. This is the most logical way of seeing things, so I just cannot agree with you on a purely biblical basis.  Revelation just does not mention an earlier 3.5 year period, it only mentions the final 3.5 year period.

 

This is just man's imagination and reasoning. The truth is, Adam's lease runs out at the 7th trumpet. Since Satan usurped Adam's lease, suddenly Satan is found with no legal hold to anything on earth, so is cast down from his high places. And since Adam's lease (the scroll in chapter 5) has run out, the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ. This in NO WAY is saying that Jesus comes to earth to take physical possession. He does NOT.

 

What you have missed is that God has His WORD out, and CANNOT lie: the Beast will be given 42 months of authority. Jesus waits in heaven for those 42 months. Therefore the 7th trumpet remains exactly what the Holy Spirit chose: the mark the exact midpoint.

 

Did you realize, for your theory, you must REARRANGE the book? Neither you nor anyone else has that authority. It is in the order these things will happen when it is time.

 

PROOF:

Daniel 9:27 tells us the week will be divided by some event that causes the daily sacrifices to cease. Paul tells us that the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. That will immediately stop the daily sacrifices. And Jesus told those in judea to flee the moment they see the abomination. We find that fleeing begins in 12:2, just a second or two after the 7th trumpet has sounded. They are obeying what Jesus told them: FLEE.

 

In your theory, they would be fleeing Jesus 2nd coming at the end of the week!

 

The kingdom of Jesus occurs at the second coming, and so the 7th trumpet is the second coming, and the 6th trumpet (the two witnesses) occurs just before the second coming

 

You have several errors in just this one sentence. The kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus right where John tells us: at the MIDPOINT of the week. Your theory is just that: a theory that does not line up with the word of God. There is no coming at the 7th trumpet. That part is MYTH. Finally, the two witnesses show up AFTER the 6th trumpet has finished. In truth, the two witnesses will show up just 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of the week. By this time the 6th trumpet event will be history - come and gone. God knows what is about to happen and will have witnesses there to testify to what they see.

 

I don't see your theory as logical at all. No theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be logical.

 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

 

Added later:   There is another point to consider: God will destroy this planet with fire; as Paul said, our works will be tried by fire. If Satan was still God of this world during the last half of the 70th week, God would have no authority to destroy the world. He could not do it! Being God, He WOULD NOT do it. No, the kingdoms of the world MUST transfer from Satan to God before God would have the authority to destroy it. If He did, He would have to cease being God that CANNOT lie.

 

LAMAD

 

 

 

LAMAD, I believe you are the one re-arranging the chronology of Revelation.  Rev 11 is very clear that the kingdom of this world becomes Christ's at the 7th trumpet,  and yet you say the bowls of wrath occur after that?   This would place the bowls of wrath into Christ's reign which is nonsensical.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Salty.

 

I will never be persuaded that the events of the final "one week" of Dan.9:27 are not about the very end of this world with the event of the Antichrist coming to Jerusalem to sit in a temple there proclaiming himself as God, ending the daily sacrifices of that new restored temple, and then placing the abomination idol that makes that temple desolate, commanding all to bow in worship to him in place of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Then you will never know what the final "one SEVEN" of Gavri'el's prophecy to Dani'el is all about! It's not about the "Antichrist" (which is falsely named); it's about the MESSIAH and the restoration of Dani'el's city and people! Did you even stop to consider the six purposes for the prophecy? NONE of them is "to introduce the Antichrist" or "to reveal the purpose of the Antichrist!" The "prince that shall come" (still future to Dani'el) was TITUS in the first century! The PEOPLE of the prince were the ROMANS! Over and done with! IN THE PAST! However, the thing that remains is that the Messiah Yeshua` is yet to receive His Kingdom and the throne of His father Daviyd! Dani'el's people are STILL left desolate, and they will remain to be so until they WAKE UP and accept Yeshua` as the Messiah of God, welcoming Him back to their city, PLEADING for Him to come! We are still within the gap that Yeshua` Himself put within these 70 Sevens in the middle of the last Seven. (Matthew 23:37-39)

 

Joel 2:1-3:3

2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion;

sound the alarm on my holy hill.

Let all who live in the land tremble,

for the day of the LORD is coming.

It is close at hand —  

2 a day of darkness and gloom, 

a day of clouds and blackness.

Like dawn spreading across the mountains

a large and mighty army comes,

such as never was of old

nor ever will be in ages to come. 

 

3 Before them fire devours,

behind them a flame blazes.

Before them the land is like the garden of Eden,

behind them, a desert waste —

nothing escapes them.

4 They have the appearance of horses;

they gallop along like cavalry.

5 With a noise like that of chariots

they leap over the mountaintops,

like a crackling fire consuming stubble,

like a mighty army drawn up for battle. 

 

6 At the sight of them, nations are in anguish;

every face turns pale.

7 They charge like warriors;

they scale walls like soldiers.

They all march in line,

not swerving from their course.

8 They do not jostle each other;

each marches straight ahead.

They plunge through defenses

without breaking ranks.

9 They rush upon the city;

they run along the wall.

They climb into the houses;

like thieves they enter through the windows. 

 

10 Before them the earth shakes,

the sky trembles,

the sun and moon are darkened,

and the stars no longer shine.

11 The LORD thunders

at the head of his army;

his forces are beyond number,

and mighty are those who obey his command.

The day of the LORD is great;

it is dreadful.

Who can endure it? 

 

12 'Even now,' declares the LORD,

'return to me with all your heart,

with fasting and weeping and mourning.' 

 

13 Rend your heart

and not your garments.

Return to the LORD your God,

for he is gracious and compassionate,

slow to anger and abounding in love,

and he relents from sending calamity.

14 Who knows? He may turn and have pity

and leave behind a blessing —

grain offerings and drink offerings

for the LORD your God. 

 

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion,

declare a holy fast,

call a sacred assembly.

16 Gather the people,

consecrate the assembly;

bring together the elders,

gather the children,

those nursing at the breast.

Let the bridegroom leave his room

and the bride her chamber.

17 Let the priests, who minister before the LORD,

weep between the temple porch and the altar.

Let them say, 'Spare your people, O LORD.

Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,

a byword among the nations.

Why should they say among the peoples,

'Where is their God?'' 

 

18 Then the LORD will be jealous for his land

and take pity on his people. 

19 The LORD will reply to them:

 

'I am sending you grain, new wine and oil,

enough to satisfy you fully;

never again will I make you

an object of scorn to the nations. 

 

20 'I will drive the northern army far from you,

pushing it into a parched and barren land,

with its front columns going into the eastern sea

and those in the rear into the western sea.

And its stench will go up;

its smell will rise.

 

'Surely he has done great things.

21 Be not afraid, O land;

be glad and rejoice.

Surely the LORD has done great things.

22 Be not afraid, O wild animals,

for the open pastures are becoming green.

The trees are bearing their fruit;

the fig tree and the vine yield their riches.

23 Be glad, O people of Zion,

rejoice in the LORD your God,

for he has given you

the autumn rains in righteousness.

He sends you abundant showers,

both autumn and spring rains, as before.

24 The threshing floors will be filled with grain;

the vats will overflow with new wine and oil. 

 

25 'I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten —

the great locust and the young locust,

the other locusts and the locust swarm—

my great army that I sent among you.

26 You will have plenty to eat, until you are full,

and you will praise the name of the LORD your God,

who has worked wonders for you;

never again will my people be shamed.

27 Then you will know that I am in Israel,

that I am the LORD your God,

and that there is no other;

never again will my people be shamed.

 

28 'And afterward,

I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your old men will dream dreams,

your young men will see visions.

29 Even on my servants, both men and women,

I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

30 I will show wonders in the heavens

and on the earth,

blood and fire and billows of smoke.

31 The sun will be turned to darkness

and the moon to blood

before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

32 And everyone who calls (CRIES OUT)

on the name of the LORD will be saved (RESCUED);

for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

there will be deliverance (RESCUE),

as the LORD has said,

among the survivors

whom the LORD calls. 

 

3:1 'In those days and at that time,

when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will gather all nations

and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.

There I will enter into judgment against them

concerning my inheritance, my people Israel,

for they scattered my people among the nations

and divided up my land.

3 They cast lots for my people

and traded boys for prostitutes;

they sold girls for wine

that they might drink. 

NIV

 

 

Zechariah 12:1-14

1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure (HERNIATE) themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the LORD. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.' 

 

6 "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place. 

 

7 "The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. 

 

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives. 

NIV

 

[Salty]

I understand the Daniel prophecies for the end just fine (as anyone looking at the layout I gave can see), especially since Jesus associated those Daniel prophecies in His Revelation given through Apostle John to HIS CHURCH.

 

Ideas that the Daniel prophecies are meant only for those in Jerusalem is a bunch of hogwash. Same goes for Christ's Olivet Discourse in Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, that also is for Christ's Church. And likewise with ideas that try to say the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel is already completed.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Salty.

 

I understand the Daniel prophecies for the end just fine (as anyone looking at the layout I gave can see), especially since Jesus associated those Daniel prophecies in His Revelation given through Apostle John to HIS CHURCH.

 

Ideas that the Daniel prophecies are meant only for those in Jerusalem is a bunch of hogwash. Same goes for Christ's Olivet Discourse in Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, that also is for Christ's Church. And likewise with ideas that try to say the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel is already completed.

 

Seriously?! "To HIS CHURCH"?!!! Are you meshuggah?! Talk about a "bunch of hogwash!" (Which obviously would be about as anti-Kosher as anyone could get!) Do you even know what "Christ" means?! (Hint: The word "christos" is a Greek translation of the Hebrew word "mashiach," both meaning "anointed [one].")

 

I never said OR even implied that the "70 weeks prophecy in Daniel is already completed." To the contrary, I merely believe that only the last half of the seventieth Seven has yet to be completed. The first half was completed when Yeshua` offered His Kingdom to Isra'el during the first century. THAT is why He is called "the King of the Jews!"

 

Or have you forgotten that beautiful passage spoken to Miryam (Mary) in Luke 1:30-33 BY THE SAME PERSON, GAVRI'EL (GABRIEL)?!

 

Luke 1:30-33

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Ieesous, pronounced "Yay-SOOS," a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew/Aramaic name, YESHUA`. Greek doesn't have an "sh" sound, nor does it have the "`ayin" sound, and they frequently ended names with a "sigma").

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

KJV

 

God hasn't abandoned the children of Isra'el in favor of some entity ERRONEOUSLY CALLED the "Church!" The "churches" (plural), which only means "called-out [assemblies]," are ADD-ONS! APPENDICES! They were added TO the "church," described in Acts 7:

 

Acts 7:37-41

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church (Greek: ekkleesia) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

KJV

 

We are supposed to be worshipping God TOGETHER as brothers!

 

Ephesians 2:11-22

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ (a Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the Messiah).

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone ("head stone of the angle"; the "capstone" of a pyramid);

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

KJV

 

Romans 2:5-12

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without (outside of the) law shall also perish without (outside of the) law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

KJV

 

Just WHO do you think Yeshua`s talmidiym (disciples) were anyway? They were CHILDREN OF ISRA'EL! Yeshua` said,

 

Matthew 15:21

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

KJV

 

So, wouldn't that include His original talmidiym? Of course, it would!

 

Re-think your Hebrew roots!

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

I believe as Romans 11 tells us that the Body of Christ`s roots are in Christ - grafted in to the olive tree. We are partakers with Israel of the rich root of the olive tree. The Body of Christ is not grafted in to Israel but Christ, therefore we do not have Hebrew roots. God`s word was given to them & also to the early believers to reveal Christ to us, not to show us any `Hebrew roots.`

 

I do notice that like a pendulum people have been either all about us, the Body of Christ or trying to fit us the other extreme, with Israel. The truth is it is all about Christ, who He is & His purposes for Israel & also, the Body of Christ.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

 

I believe as Romans 11 tells us that the Body of Christ`s roots are in Christ - grafted in to the olive tree. We are partakers with Israel of the rich root of the olive tree. The Body of Christ is not grafted in to Israel but Christ, therefore we do not have Hebrew roots. God`s word was given to them & also to the early believers to reveal Christ to us, not to show us any `Hebrew roots.`

 

I do notice that like a pendulum people have been either all about us, the Body of Christ or trying to fit us the other extreme, with Israel. The truth is it is all about Christ, who He is & His purposes for Israel & also, the Body of Christ.

 

The olive tree doesn't represent the Messiah; it represents the KINGDOM of the Messiah. That is, it's the ORIGINAL Kingdom of God with the adaptation of Daviyd as its first mashiach (messiah, christ, anointed one) and melekh (king). God gave David a PROMISE - even stronger, a COVENANT - that the Kingship would never pass away from Daviyd's seed:

 

2 Samuel 7:8-16

8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:

9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the Lord telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

KJV

 

1 Chronicles 17:7-14

7 Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:

8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.

9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,

10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the Lord will build thee an house.

11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.

12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.

13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:

14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

KJV

 

1 Chronicles 22:7-10

7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the Lord my God:

8 But the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.

9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.

10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.

KJV

 

This is the Davidic Covenant which Yeshua` ratified simply by showing up for Yochanan's baptism! We know this because His Father confirmed it:

 

Matthew 3:16-17

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

KJV

 

Mark 1:9-11

9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

KJV

 

Luke 3:21-22

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

KJV

 

 

This is why Yeshua` is constantly called "the son of David." It shows His right to the throne!

 

When I said that one should recognize his "Hebrew roots," I was referring to the fact that what we call "Christianity" today is ROOTED in the heritage of Isra'el! The Lord's Supper (which some call the Eucharist) was originally the Pesach Seder (the Passover Meal)! The "cup" that was shared at that time was the "Cup of Redemption," the third of four cups of wine served at the Seder! The "bread" that was shared at that time was the matzot (unleavened bread that looks like a large, unsalted cracker) served at the Seder! The "baptism" that Yochanan (John) performed, even on the Master Himself, was a common cleansing ritual performed in the "mikvah," of pool of "living water," or "moving water," not still or stagnant! The holidays that we celebrate have their origins in the faith of the children of Isra'el. Pentecost (which means "50th") is the Jewish holiday known as "Shavuot!" Resurrection Sunday, commonly called "Easter" (after the pagan goddess of fertility, Ishtar), was originally the celebration of "Firstfruits!" It's also the first day of the fifty-day period of counting the omer, a "sheaf" a day. On the fiftieth day, Shavuot was celebrated. And, these are just a SAMPLING of the influence of the Jewish faith on Christianity!

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

Thank you for your detailed reply. Now what you have written continues to show that it is Christ whom all those feasts & festivals are about. And I say that from God`s word Christ is the Olive tree.

 

`....if the root be holy, the branches are too......partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,...`  (Rom. 11: 16 & 17)

 

Only Christ is `holy,` & it is only Him that we partake of. We are not to look to the `shadows,`  or types but to Christ Himself. (Heb. 9: 9  & 10: 1) 

 

Christ`s relationship with Israel is one of Kin-ship, He is their King, and to the Body of Christ He is also Kin-   but the Head, which is a closer relationship.

Christ was before Israel, & time He holds many offices & to try & link us all with Israel is to misunderstand God`s full eternal purposes.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Therefore I have NO DOUBT that the entire 70th week is still ahead of us. I have a GREAT advantage, for God Himself instructed me in this exact area. If God believes it is, that is good enough for me.

 

LAMAD

 

 

For the purpose of bible discussions its better to show your evidence from the bible. Even Jesus used this scriptural approach. So I don't find your last point compelling whatsoever, despite being sure that in other areas God would communicate with you directly.

 

Paul used his own personal testimony, even before kings. I certainly will not deny what really happened.

God spoke to me about this very subject and left no doubt that in HIS mind, the entire 70th week is still future, being "clearly marked" in the book of Revelation.

LAMAD

 

 

Well LAMAD your "clear markings" are subject to interpretation.  The period of the last few trumpets more logically overlaps the tribulation than precedes the tribulation. 

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become

    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

The kingdom of Jesus occurs at the second coming, and so the 7th trumpet is the second coming, and the 6th trumpet (the two witnesses) occurs just before the second coming. This is the most logical way of seeing things, so I just cannot agree with you on a purely biblical basis.  Revelation just does not mention an earlier 3.5 year period, it only mentions the final 3.5 year period.

 

This is just man's imagination and reasoning. The truth is, Adam's lease runs out at the 7th trumpet. Since Satan usurped Adam's lease, suddenly Satan is found with no legal hold to anything on earth, so is cast down from his high places. And since Adam's lease (the scroll in chapter 5) has run out, the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ. This in NO WAY is saying that Jesus comes to earth to take physical possession. He does NOT.

 

What you have missed is that God has His WORD out, and CANNOT lie: the Beast will be given 42 months of authority. Jesus waits in heaven for those 42 months. Therefore the 7th trumpet remains exactly what the Holy Spirit chose: the mark the exact midpoint.

 

Did you realize, for your theory, you must REARRANGE the book? Neither you nor anyone else has that authority. It is in the order these things will happen when it is time.

 

PROOF:

Daniel 9:27 tells us the week will be divided by some event that causes the daily sacrifices to cease. Paul tells us that the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. That will immediately stop the daily sacrifices. And Jesus told those in judea to flee the moment they see the abomination. We find that fleeing begins in 12:2, just a second or two after the 7th trumpet has sounded. They are obeying what Jesus told them: FLEE.

 

In your theory, they would be fleeing Jesus 2nd coming at the end of the week!

 

The kingdom of Jesus occurs at the second coming, and so the 7th trumpet is the second coming, and the 6th trumpet (the two witnesses) occurs just before the second coming

 

You have several errors in just this one sentence. The kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus right where John tells us: at the MIDPOINT of the week. Your theory is just that: a theory that does not line up with the word of God. There is no coming at the 7th trumpet. That part is MYTH. Finally, the two witnesses show up AFTER the 6th trumpet has finished. In truth, the two witnesses will show up just 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint of the week. By this time the 6th trumpet event will be history - come and gone. God knows what is about to happen and will have witnesses there to testify to what they see.

 

I don't see your theory as logical at all. No theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be logical.

 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

 

Added later:   There is another point to consider: God will destroy this planet with fire; as Paul said, our works will be tried by fire. If Satan was still God of this world during the last half of the 70th week, God would have no authority to destroy the world. He could not do it! Being God, He WOULD NOT do it. No, the kingdoms of the world MUST transfer from Satan to God before God would have the authority to destroy it. If He did, He would have to cease being God that CANNOT lie.

 

LAMAD

 

 

 

LAMAD, I believe you are the one re-arranging the chronology of Revelation.  Rev 11 is very clear that the kingdom of this world becomes Christ's at the 7th trumpet,  and yet you say the bowls of wrath occur after that?   This would place the bowls of wrath into Christ's reign which is nonsensical.

 

WHY is it nonsensical? If I want to destroy something, say a washing machine, had I not first make sure the one I destroy is MINE to destroy? I cannot destroy something that is not mine. That would be wrong. ( I used washing machine because I saw a video of one being destroyed just for the fun of it.)

 

Yes, the kingdoms ARE transferred in chapter 11, which is a MIDPOINT chapter (except for the parenthesis of verses 4-13). I am convinced this transfer will occur at the 7th trumpet exactly where God put it. Now that the kingdoms are back under God's rulership, THEN He can destroy them. And OF COURSE the vials come after the trumpets. That is the God given chronology John wrote.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

 

Shalom, Salty.

 

I understand the Daniel prophecies for the end just fine (as anyone looking at the layout I gave can see), especially since Jesus associated those Daniel prophecies in His Revelation given through Apostle John to HIS CHURCH.

 

Ideas that the Daniel prophecies are meant only for those in Jerusalem is a bunch of hogwash. Same goes for Christ's Olivet Discourse in Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, that also is for Christ's Church. And likewise with ideas that try to say the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel is already completed.

 

Seriously?! "To HIS CHURCH"?!!! Are you meshuggah?! Talk about a "bunch of hogwash!" (Which obviously would be about as anti-Kosher as anyone could get!) Do you even know what "Christ" means?! (Hint: The word "christos" is a Greek translation of the Hebrew word "mashiach," both meaning "anointed [one].")

 

I never said OR even implied that the "70 weeks prophecy in Daniel is already completed." To the contrary, I merely believe that only the last half of the seventieth Seven has yet to be completed. The first half was completed when Yeshua` offered His Kingdom to Isra'el during the first century. THAT is why He is called "the King of the Jews!"

 

Or have you forgotten that beautiful passage spoken to Miryam (Mary) in Luke 1:30-33 BY THE SAME PERSON, GAVRI'EL (GABRIEL)?!

 

Luke 1:30-33

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Ieesous, pronounced "Yay-SOOS," a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew/Aramaic name, YESHUA`. Greek doesn't have an "sh" sound, nor does it have the "`ayin" sound, and they frequently ended names with a "sigma").

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

KJV

 

God hasn't abandoned the children of Isra'el in favor of some entity ERRONEOUSLY CALLED the "Church!" The "churches" (plural), which only means "called-out [assemblies]," are ADD-ONS! APPENDICES! They were added TO the "church," described in Acts 7:

 

Acts 7:37-41

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church (Greek: ekkleesia) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

KJV

 

We are supposed to be worshipping God TOGETHER as brothers!

 

Ephesians 2:11-22

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ (a Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the Messiah).

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone ("head stone of the angle"; the "capstone" of a pyramid);

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

KJV

 

Romans 2:5-12

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without (outside of the) law shall also perish without (outside of the) law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

KJV

 

Just WHO do you think Yeshua`s talmidiym (disciples) were anyway? They were CHILDREN OF ISRA'EL! Yeshua` said,

 

Matthew 15:21

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

KJV

 

So, wouldn't that include His original talmidiym? Of course, it would!

 

Re-think your Hebrew roots!

 

 

Any... supposition that the final 70th week has already begun is false, period. The reason is because that final "one week" of Dan.9:27 is reserved for the very end when the coming Antichrist shows up to fulfill the "vile person" and "little horn" roles which Jesus linked to for the end in His Olivet Discourse and in His Revelation, both prophecies given to His Church.

 

The 2300 days of Dan.8 are directly linked to the ending of the daily sacrifices and placing of the "abomination that makes desolate", an event involving the last "one week" of Dan.9:27 by the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Christ/vile person/little horn of Scripture.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Salty.

 

 

 

Shalom, Salty.

 

I understand the Daniel prophecies for the end just fine (as anyone looking at the layout I gave can see), especially since Jesus associated those Daniel prophecies in His Revelation given through Apostle John to HIS CHURCH.

 

Ideas that the Daniel prophecies are meant only for those in Jerusalem is a bunch of hogwash. Same goes for Christ's Olivet Discourse in Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, that also is for Christ's Church. And likewise with ideas that try to say the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel is already completed.

 

Seriously?! "To HIS CHURCH"?!!! Are you meshuggah?! Talk about a "bunch of hogwash!" (Which obviously would be about as anti-Kosher as anyone could get!) Do you even know what "Christ" means?! (Hint: The word "christos" is a Greek translation of the Hebrew word "mashiach," both meaning "anointed [one].")

 

I never said OR even implied that the "70 weeks prophecy in Daniel is already completed." To the contrary, I merely believe that only the last half of the seventieth Seven has yet to be completed. The first half was completed when Yeshua` offered His Kingdom to Isra'el during the first century. THAT is why He is called "the King of the Jews!"

 

Or have you forgotten that beautiful passage spoken to Miryam (Mary) in Luke 1:30-33 BY THE SAME PERSON, GAVRI'EL (GABRIEL)?!

 

Luke 1:30-33

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Ieesous, pronounced "Yay-SOOS," a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew/Aramaic name, YESHUA`. Greek doesn't have an "sh" sound, nor does it have the "`ayin" sound, and they frequently ended names with a "sigma").

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

KJV

 

God hasn't abandoned the children of Isra'el in favor of some entity ERRONEOUSLY CALLED the "Church!" The "churches" (plural), which only means "called-out [assemblies]," are ADD-ONS! APPENDICES! They were added TO the "church," described in Acts 7:

 

Acts 7:37-41

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church (Greek: ekkleesia) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

KJV

 

We are supposed to be worshipping God TOGETHER as brothers!

 

Ephesians 2:11-22

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ (a Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the Messiah).

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone ("head stone of the angle"; the "capstone" of a pyramid);

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

KJV

 

Romans 2:5-12

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without (outside of the) law shall also perish without (outside of the) law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

KJV

 

Just WHO do you think Yeshua`s talmidiym (disciples) were anyway? They were CHILDREN OF ISRA'EL! Yeshua` said,

 

Matthew 15:21

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

KJV

 

So, wouldn't that include His original talmidiym? Of course, it would!

 

Re-think your Hebrew roots!

 

 

Any... supposition that the final 70th week has already begun is false, period. The reason is because that final "one week" of Dan.9:27 is reserved for the very end when the coming Antichrist shows up to fulfill the "vile person" and "little horn" roles which Jesus linked to for the end in His Olivet Discourse and in His Revelation, both prophecies given to His Church.

 

The 2300 days of Dan.8 are directly linked to the ending of the daily sacrifices and placing of the "abomination that makes desolate", an event involving the last "one week" of Dan.9:27 by the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Christ/vile person/little horn of Scripture.

 

 

Why? Because YOU say so? Nonsense. You base the coming of the Antichrist on Daniel 9 and you base the interpretation of Daniel 9 (that the Antichrist is the "prince that shall come") on your belief for an Antichrist! That's not logical!