Please explain John 3:5

[gdemoss]

Simply amazing!

Whenever a doctrine is directly related to salvation in the mind of one who believes such, said person dogmaticaaly holds to their position regardless of what anyone seeks to show them is plainly written.

If a man wants to understand the way others think as to better understand how to undermine their thinking and thus prove himself true. Ego and pride.

It appears that Nicodemous came to Jesus and when Jesus began to speak to him he became tripped up at the phrase born again. Jesus being a teacher begins to do what he does best and condesend to the fleshly man in order to teach him.

He begins by contrasting the two types of birth which is shown plainly. Then he leaves off speaking of the flesh to continue to focus on the Spirit.

Nicodemus understands what was said but doesn't want to believe and asks further for Jesus to explain how it is possible but Jesus comes back asking him how he ever became master in Israel not knowing these things.

Nicodemous never says another word but Jesus continues on. The OT is chock full of examples of leaders and masters of Israel who were ignorant of the truth in God. But Jesus continues on and declares unto Nicodemous that he is the Son of God and that if Nicodemous wants eternal life he must believe in him though he is going to die at the hands of sinners.

What a shock to the theology of Nicodemous that must have been! He knew Messiah would come one day. And standing before him was a man who has been preforming great godly acts and not only claiming to be him but revealing the true meaning of scripture behind such passages as Moses and the bronze serpent.

A man born only of the flesh is corrupt and corruptable by the nature of fallen man. A man born of the Spirit has both the old man who is corruptable and the new man inside which is incorruptable. The old man born of water but the new born of the Spirit. No wonder things get a bit confusing to us!

Nicodemous eventually gets it and partakes in the burial of Christ.

To be perverse in the word of God is to interpret per verse.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings gdemoss...

    

 

To be perverse in the word of God is to interpret per verse.                                                                                        posted by gdemoss

   I don't know if I should have heard that phrase before but honestly,I never have! Excellent!

                                                                                                                                                      With love-in Christ,Kwik

[zhavoney]

 

By that logic, I should be raising the dead and calming storms by the word of my mouth.    The truth is that we are baptized because it is an ordinance given by Jesus AFTER His resurrection.  I am not taking a chance, because my faith is in Jesus, not in baptism, for my salvation.   If you are trusting baptism for salvation, you are going to be disappointed after you die when you hear the words from Jesus,  "Depart from me...  for I never knew you."

 

Salvation by baptism is a false Gospel and should be rejected by TRUE Christian followers of Jesus.

 

Yes those who truly believe in Him should be and will be raising the dead and calming storms by the word of their mouth. See if you can save one who has not been filled or baptized by the Spirit of Christ and try to  stop one from being saved who has and is..

 

12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

 

15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness."

Edited October 12, 2014 by zhavoney

[zhavoney]

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

 

Have you been Baptized  by water unto repentance? Have you asked Christ to Baptize you with His holy Spirit?  You don't want the Baptism by fire that burns up the chaff.

 

12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

 

5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I was told this doesn't not refer to water baptism. Can some one explain to me what it means to be born of water??

 

 

It is referring to the baptism with water and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

It is not referring to baptism in any sense.    Part of our problem is that we are trying to read our traditions retro-actively back into the Bible without giving any consideration for historical propriety.   Neither the baptism of the Holy Spirit nor Christian baptism were in existence when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and so would not have entered the mind Nicodemus.

 

Trying to force baptism on to John 3:5 is simply sloppy biblical interpretation.

 

The scripture means what it says for the fact that no one is saved until they are filled or baptized with Gods Holy Spirit.

We are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit the moment we are saved (Rom. 6:3-4).  Being filled with the Holy Spirit is a post conversion experience and refers to being controlled by the Holy Spirit.

 

John 3:5 is not talking about water baptism and there is nothing in the verse to suggest that it is. 

 

Call it what you will but the meaning is the same.  Whether anyone is saved without water baptism is yet to be seen by the final outcome .

 

Wrong.  That is sloppy theology.   The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not through baptism. 

 

 

But why take the Chance. Christ is our example and it is enough that a disciple be like his Master.

 

By that logic, I should be raising the dead and calming storms by the word of my mouth.    The truth is that we are baptized because it is an ordinance given by Jesus AFTER His resurrection.  I am not taking a chance, because my faith is in Jesus, not in baptism, for my salvation.   If you are trusting baptism for salvation, you are going to be disappointed after you die when you hear the words from Jesus,  "Depart from me...  for I never knew you."

 

Salvation by baptism is a false Gospel and should be rejected by TRUE Christian followers of Jesus.

 

 

I agree that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ alone and not by works (like baptism).

And furthermore, I do believe that it is a false teaching and misconstrues the Gospel message.

It confuses and divides the church.

We are to be obedient to the command to be baptized because works are part of Sanctification;

fruits that we bear following salvation.

 

But I'd hesitate to say that Jesus would tell someone to "Depart...", just because they mistakenly added

water baptism to the saving process while they still maintained the prerequisite faith in Christ alone as

their Redeemer and Lord.

We can be wrong and even misguided about Scripture and still be saved... only Christ will judge.

IMHO.

 

No, you're wrong.   There is a curse on those who teach a false Gospel.  Adding something to salvation like baptism isn't just mere error.  It perverts the Gospel and how a person is saved.  If a person is trying to be saved through baptism, they are not saved.   Salvation is Jesus + 0.   You can either trust in baptism or you can trust in Jesus, but you can't have both.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

By that logic, I should be raising the dead and calming storms by the word of my mouth.    The truth is that we are baptized because it is an ordinance given by Jesus AFTER His resurrection.  I am not taking a chance, because my faith is in Jesus, not in baptism, for my salvation.   If you are trusting baptism for salvation, you are going to be disappointed after you die when you hear the words from Jesus,  "Depart from me...  for I never knew you."

 

Salvation by baptism is a false Gospel and should be rejected by TRUE Christian followers of Jesus.

 

Yes those who truly believe in Him should be and will be raising the dead and calming storms by the word of their mouth.

More false teaching...

[Guest Teditis]

 

 

 

 

 

 

5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I was told this doesn't not refer to water baptism. Can some one explain to me what it means to be born of water??

 

 

It is referring to the baptism with water and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

It is not referring to baptism in any sense.    Part of our problem is that we are trying to read our traditions retro-actively back into the Bible without giving any consideration for historical propriety.   Neither the baptism of the Holy Spirit nor Christian baptism were in existence when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and so would not have entered the mind Nicodemus.

 

Trying to force baptism on to John 3:5 is simply sloppy biblical interpretation.

 

The scripture means what it says for the fact that no one is saved until they are filled or baptized with Gods Holy Spirit.

We are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit the moment we are saved (Rom. 6:3-4).  Being filled with the Holy Spirit is a post conversion experience and refers to being controlled by the Holy Spirit.

 

John 3:5 is not talking about water baptism and there is nothing in the verse to suggest that it is. 

 

Call it what you will but the meaning is the same.  Whether anyone is saved without water baptism is yet to be seen by the final outcome .

 

Wrong.  That is sloppy theology.   The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, not through baptism. 

 

 

But why take the Chance. Christ is our example and it is enough that a disciple be like his Master.

 

By that logic, I should be raising the dead and calming storms by the word of my mouth.    The truth is that we are baptized because it is an ordinance given by Jesus AFTER His resurrection.  I am not taking a chance, because my faith is in Jesus, not in baptism, for my salvation.   If you are trusting baptism for salvation, you are going to be disappointed after you die when you hear the words from Jesus,  "Depart from me...  for I never knew you."

 

Salvation by baptism is a false Gospel and should be rejected by TRUE Christian followers of Jesus.

 

 

I agree that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ alone and not by works (like baptism).

And furthermore, I do believe that it is a false teaching and misconstrues the Gospel message.

It confuses and divides the church.

We are to be obedient to the command to be baptized because works are part of Sanctification;

fruits that we bear following salvation.

 

But I'd hesitate to say that Jesus would tell someone to "Depart...", just because they mistakenly added

water baptism to the saving process while they still maintained the prerequisite faith in Christ alone as

their Redeemer and Lord.

We can be wrong and even misguided about Scripture and still be saved... only Christ will judge.

IMHO.

 

No, you're wrong.   There is a curse on those who teach a false Gospel.  Adding something to salvation like baptism isn't just mere error.  It perverts the Gospel and how a person is saved.  If a person is trying to be saved through baptism, they are not saved.   Salvation is Jesus + 0.   You can either trust in baptism or you can trust in Jesus, but you can't have both.

 

 

Wow, you're going to need a lot of Scripture to back that up.

 

 

There's plenty to support that we all fall short of the Glory of God

and yet are still saved.

Are you condemning all Baptists to Hell btw? Or other denominations that hold

to the need for baptism as a Holy Sacrament or just the ones you meet?

 

Respectfully and IMHO, you're hung up in legalism, brother, so I'll be praying for you.

I'd hope that you'd pray for me too... and not argue.

~t

[Guest shiloh357]

Wow, you're going to need a lot of Scripture to back that up.

 

I need Scripture to back up the idea that salvation is in Christ alone???  Seriously??

 

There's plenty to support that we all fall short of the Glory of God

and yet are still saved.

Are you condemning all Baptists to Hell btw? Or other denominations that hold

to the need for baptism as a Holy Sacrament or just the ones you meet?

 

Anyone that teaches that salvation is necessary for salvation is teaching a false gospel and is not Christian.   Baptism is necessary because Jesus commanded it.  It is not necessary for salvation.  Baptismal regeneration is a gross violation of Scripture and  a perversion of the Gospel

 

Respectfully and IMHO, you're hung up in legalism, brother, so I'll be praying for you.

 

You're wrong again.   Legalism is when you add something to salvation other than Jesus.  You should go learn what legalism means before you use it in a sentence.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

i would not waste your time and energy trying to discuss this with Shiloh. He has fixed in his mind what Baptism is and what he thinks Baptism is. And his idea of what baptism is not what we believe.

I've been down this road with him in the baptism thread. He has put his blinders on and refuses to discuss. Notice all he ever says is how wrong everyone is. But refuses to discuss. If you give scripture than he accuses you of sloppy theology lol heck he's done that to some one in this thread already. He's done it to me many times. Doesn't matter how black and white it is. If he doesn't follow your theology than you are twisting scripture or reading your theology into scripture etc etc. I get the impression that he thinks he is infallible.

I got what I was looking for. I was looking for the opposing point of view to help me understand why they believe what they do. I got that, I still disagree with the position and still hold that Jesus instituted Christian baptism at the Jordan river and made it very clear how important it is.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Judas Machabeus

[mevosper]

I believe John 3:5 also shows us why Angels, spiritual beings, cannot be "saved". Hence, Satan's doom is sealed - since he was not born of flesh. This is a simplistic view, but hopefully helps explain.