Christian perfection

[Mr Nice]

I agree, we can never achieve anything through our own efforts and we must rely fully on the grace of God. I believe that is the core of Romans 7. When Paul was under the law, he was bound because in Himself he had no way to overcome, the sinfulness of man took advantage of the law. But Romans 7 starts out by us dying to the law so we can be married to another Christ. Romans 6 says we died over and over again and are no longer slaves to sin. Romans 7 shows someone who is a slave to sin. Romans 8 shows that we have been given His Spirit to empower us to walk righteously. It's His grace that we can walk righteous and blameless. It's His Spirit empowering us.

Rom. 7:14-25 pertains to Paul's struggle with sin.  Paul is not talking about an unbeliever.  Unbelievers don't struggle with sin.  There is a difference between struggling with sin and being a slave to it.  Paul is explaining the struggle had as a believer in vv. 22-23

 

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.(Rom 7:22-23)

 

The grammatical structure in the Greek shows us that this is not a pre-Christian struggle that Paul is depicting.  Paul is speaking in the present tense of his experience as a believer. 

 

The whole chapter is about the affects of being under the Law are and concludes with what will seperate us from the Law. Notice Paul speakss nothing about the Holy Spirit. he is speaking of the battle between his spirit and athe flesh. There is no Holy Spirit involved in his struggles which is why he continually was failing.

Paul struggled for some time with unforgiveness toward John Mark after John Mark abandoned him on a missionary journey.  His unforgiveness was so bad that it caused him to sever his relationship with Barnabas and the Bible never tells us if Barnabas and Paul ever forgave each other over that.   So to say that Paul never struggled with sin after he got born again, is simply false.

Having a stong disagreement with someone does not mean you have sinned. Likewise the disagreemnet Paul had with Barnabaswas not a sin, which would explain why neither of them is said to have forgiven the other. Forgiveness is not needed if there is no sin.

 

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

The Spirit is what empowers us to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

 

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

That is not a one time thing.  The flesh rise up again and again and we continually war against it.

 

The war you mentioned in Galatians shows its either one or the other, not both. The flesh does war against the Spirit, but the Spirit is what puts to death the deeds of the flesh. It's only by the Holy Spirit we shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If you walk in the Spirit you won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

 

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

There is no sin too big for God, there is no sin we are bound to. We have been set free and His power helps us walk free. If that's not true, what sin is so big that God lacks the power to help you overcome it?

The mistake you and others are making is the assumption that if a person commits a single sin it means that they have not overcome sin.  Anyone who thinks that they NEVER sin as a believer is a fraud.

 

By your definition that a single sin does not mean you have not overcome sin then the only way we would be overcome is if sinning is all we did. The problem is that you want to define overcoming sin as not committing habitual sin which is not spoken of in scripture. It is having victory over somethin. If you have given into sin, any sin, then sin has overcome you. There is no other way to define overcome.

I think that one of the differences of interpretation comes from our understanding of what the flesh is. I do not believe the flesh is my body, or some nature in my body that I’m stuck with, but the carnal way of thinking. We have a lifetime where our thoughts, memories, habits, etc are programed after the devil. That is why Jesus came on the scene saying repent “Change your mind” The Kingdom of heaven is at hand. Meaning renew your mind to the truth.

The Bible defines the flesh as our sinful nature.  When you got born again, your sin nature was not eradicated.  You still have it.  That is why we still struggle with it.

The key is we will struggle with temptation not with sin. Scripture never says we will loose to temptation.

 

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

We need our minds renewed to the reality of what He’s done. Transformation comes from renewing our mind.

 

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

We need to put off the old man and live as the New Man, created in righteousness and holiness.

Ephesians 4:21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

 

And those commandments would be superfluous if it were the case that the Bible anticipates that believer never commit a single sin.    All of the commandments about forgiveness and forbearing others  in the church, our fellow believers, make no sense if the Bible anticipates that we will never sin.   Paul dealt with sin constantly in the Church. 

Please read Colossians 2:1-17 and Ephesians 4:17-32 before trying to use the verses about forgiving others. Forgiveness of others is what we are commanded to do or our sins will not be forgiven. Both of these passages speak of exactly what a Christian is to do in both getting sin completely out of their lives and producing the fruit of the Spirit part of which is forgiving because it demonstrates the love of God to others. When Paul speaks of growing in the Lord he emphasizes it whith you are doing well but excel still more. The doing well is never in view of striving against sins, it is always about doing more for the Lord, producing more fruit.

 

When we came to Christ, we become a new creation. Our old man is dead, crucified with Christ and we are new created in true righteousness and holiness. The issue is we still think like the old, now we are in the process of renewing our minds to the reality of who God says we are. If I believe I'm just a wretched sinner, I'm going to sin out of faith. But, if I believe that I am who God says I am, righteous, holy, blameless my actions are going to follow.

I know it is hard for some Christians to accept, but we are still sinner.  We are redeemed sinners, but we are still sinners.   We are objectively holy and blamess and righteous, but what you need to understand is that those things are "imputed" to us.  They are not inherently a part of us and won't be until we receive our glorified bodies.

 

If we are still sinners as Christians then we are still under the Law for the Law is not for the righteous but for the ungodly and the sinners. Peter talks about the difficulty of entering heaven. 1 Peter 4:17-19 NASB

For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved , what will become of the godless man and the sinner ? Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

Notice it is with difficulty that the righteous are saved. Living a life in which sin still remains is easy. Living a life free from sin is difficult because it requires giving all of self to Christ. We are also told that those who wish to live godly lives will be persecuted. And Christ says that the world will hate us because it hated Him. Why did the world hate Christ? It was because His life demonstrated to the world what kind of people they were. If sin remains in our life, the only reason the world would hate us because we are claiming to be saved while we are living like them, that is "in sin". We must be different than the world and in order to be different we can not be like them. We are to Light unto the world and there can be no darkness in the Light we are showing.

 

I also believe the goal of the Holy Spirit is not to make us just not sin any more, but that we would look just like Christ.

Ephesians 4:2 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Holy Spirit is transforming us into the image of Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

That is a process over time.  We are daily being changed.  The notion that we are living perfectly sinless is not part of that; in fact, it would speak to the exact opposite.

It is a process of continully increasing in love. Again, scripture never speaks of striving against sin. It says resist the devil and he will flee from you. Take up the shield of faith and you will be able to extinguish ALL the flamng arrows of satan. It never says you will win some and lose some. It says we will be victorious. Please stick to what the Bible says about being able to overcome sin.

I do believe God is patient not wanting any to perish and he will forgive us if we are truly repentent. However, His patience does not grant us imunity from the penalty of sin which remains. If we are still in sin (even singular sin when we die or when He comes we will die in that sin). There is no percentage of sin we must remove from our lives. It must be 100% removed through the power God has granted to us in His Son and Spirit. God is not partial. One sin is they same as 10,000 sins. The only sin greater than all others is the one that is not overcome. We cannot not serve both God and the devil. We will love the one and hate the other. If sin still remains in us then Christ says we do not love Him because we are not keeping His commandments which means we love the devil. A Christian who continues to live in sin is the devil's greatest tool for keep both believers and non-believers under his control. Believing we will not suffer for continuing to disobey God is believing the same lie Eve fell for. The devil told Eve that she wouldn't die for eating of the tree, saying God knew that if they ate of it they would become like Him. He told them a half truth. God wants us today to be like Him in our lives and disobeying Him has never boded well for anyone.

[Kan]

Can Christ bring complete victory over all sin, sins of the flesh or whatever or not?

If not, who is failing the faithless or Christ?

Where does it say in the Bible that if you don't overcome you will be saved?

[Mr Nice]

 

I don't believe being commanded to be perfect, holy, blameless, to prove ourselves innocent and blameless are given as goals.  They are most certainly commands.  What we have been promised is that there is no sin which we can not bear and that he will always provide the way out.  We have been told that if we practice the fruit of the Spirit then we will never stumble.

You say you still sin, yet you still say it is possible not to sin in this life. You are a contradiction to your own teachings/theology. I don't understand why you continue to tell people they can live a life of sin when scripture constantly tells us to beware of what we do so we don't sin.

I would be a contradiction if I claimed I was living according to the Spirit when I wasn't. Unlike you I am not afraid of admitting I have not fully given my life to Christ. I know I can't do it on my own, but I also can't do it until I give up myself and let the Spirit lead me. Not being what I know we are supposed to be doesn't mean it isn't true. I have tried to destroy my own belief because I know what it currently means will hapen to me if I don't fully give myself to Christ. What each of you has failed to understand is that you claim to have given your life to Christ while at the same time serving the one you obey (that would be the devil) when you commit sin. When you sin it means you are a slave to sin. Read John 8. Christ makes some major statements withrespect to everything I have been saying.

John 8:12, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." Jesus says follows Him, not just believes in Him.

John 8:28-35, 37-44 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him." As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father." They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:51-52 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'

Let us rehash the words of Christ:

1. He who follows Him will not walk in darkness.

2. The Father did not leave Him because He ALWAYS did the things that were pleasing to Him.

3. To those who believed He told them if they continue in His word they will truly be disciples of His and they will know the truth and the truth will set them free.

4. He also said "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." He says if they commit sin they are a slave to sin.

5. They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham." Notice Christ said to do the deeds of Abraham not just his faith.

The only scripture that tells me that we will never stumble is not about the fruit of the Spirit, but found in 2 Peter 1:5-22

 

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The things Peter is speaking about are found in verses 5-10a. The Fruit of the Spirit is found in Galatians 5:22-26

 

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

This passage tells us there is no law against any of His fruit, not that if we do them we will not stumble, as you claim. It is best to not add to scripture, but to take it at it's rightful context.

With the list given in 2 Peter is not the fruit of the Spirit which we are adding to our faith then they must be the wrks of man. If this is the case then by practicing the works of man we will never stumble and thus the entrance will be opened unto us for what we have dne instead of what the Spirit has done through us. We will not do any of the things listed in 2 Peter with out the HS which is one of the promises spoken of in the first four verses through which we will escape the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Let us compare the two lists.

2 peter 1                                        Galatians 5

faith                                                faithfulness

virtue                                              goodness

knowledge                                      This comes from the Spirit who instructs us.

self control                                      self control

perseverence                                  long suffering

godliness                                        joy, peace, gentleness, faithfulness

brotherly kindness                          kindness

love love

I don't know about you but the lists look pretty much identical. Would you like to resind your statement that what is spoken of in 2 Peter 1 or are you going to insist that they must be the work of man and we save ourselves?

Edited January 5, 2015 by Mr Nice

[Wildstar]

Can a Christian, who believes in all the promises of God and the He who is in him is greater than he who is in the world, live the rest of his days blameless and fully sanctfied?

Why yes they can!

 

Hebrews 10 shows that we are fully sanctified by our faith in Jesus Christ.  Sanctified means to be made holy! 

 

Hebrews 10:15 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

 

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

 

Sanctified by faith in the TRUTH.  Perfected by this sanctification. 

 

Lest you forget!  Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a single righteous man on earth who practices good and does not sin.

 

We are made PERFECT through faith in Jesus.  but we live as if we are not perfect, striving for holiness all the days of our lives.  Our flesh is not removed from us.  On the contrary we keep our flesh and all its evil desires.  Let the holy spirit lead you with its strength.  It is better to be weak than to be strong.

 

I consider my self paralytic when it comes to not sinning.  I look at my self and see only weakness.  My eyes aren't clear and I can't hear so well.  But I believe I am these things so that his power will rest on me.  I tell God I am these things, believing them, he will bless me.  Live your life with faith.  And be born again of water and the spirit. 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

I agree, we can never achieve anything through our own efforts and we must rely fully on the grace of God. I believe that is the core of Romans 7. When Paul was under the law, he was bound because in Himself he had no way to overcome, the sinfulness of man took advantage of the law. But Romans 7 starts out by us dying to the law so we can be married to another Christ. Romans 6 says we died over and over again and are no longer slaves to sin. Romans 7 shows someone who is a slave to sin. Romans 8 shows that we have been given His Spirit to empower us to walk righteously. It's His grace that we can walk righteous and blameless. It's His Spirit empowering us.

Rom. 7:14-25 pertains to Paul's struggle with sin.  Paul is not talking about an unbeliever.  Unbelievers don't struggle with sin.  There is a difference between struggling with sin and being a slave to it.  Paul is explaining the struggle had as a believer in vv. 22-23

 

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.(Rom 7:22-23)

 

The grammatical structure in the Greek shows us that this is not a pre-Christian struggle that Paul is depicting.  Paul is speaking in the present tense of his experience as a believer. 

 

The whole chapter is about the affects of being under the Law are and concludes with what will seperate us from the Law. Notice Paul speakss nothing about the Holy Spirit. he is speaking of the battle between his spirit and athe flesh. There is no Holy Spirit involved in his struggles which is why he continually was failing.

Paul struggled for some time with unforgiveness toward John Mark after John Mark abandoned him on a missionary journey.  His unforgiveness was so bad that it caused him to sever his relationship with Barnabas and the Bible never tells us if Barnabas and Paul ever forgave each other over that.   So to say that Paul never struggled with sin after he got born again, is simply false.

Having a stong disagreement with someone does not mean you have sinned. Likewise the disagreemnet Paul had with Barnabaswas not a sin, which would explain why neither of them is said to have forgiven the other. Forgiveness is not needed if there is no sin. 

Disagreeing with someone isn't a sin.  But Paul's problem was unforgiveness.  Unforgiveness is a sin and Paul struggled with it and he allowed it to destroy the ministry he had with Barnabas.  It was not until much later that Paul overcame that unforgiveness.   But for the time he was struggling with that sin, according to YOU, Paul was unsaved.  According to your warped theology, Paul would have spent his ministry preaching the Gospel in an unsaved state.   Yet the Lord was moving in Pauls' ministry and leading Him.  So it leaves us in a conundrum how Paul could have been unsaved according to the standard you have erected and yet still being led by the Holy Spirit.

 

By your definition that a single sin does not mean you have not overcome sin then the only way we would be overcome is if sinning is all we did. The problem is that you want to define overcoming sin as not committing habitual sin which is not spoken of in scripture. It is having victory over somethin. If you have given into sin, any sin, then sin has overcome you. There is no other way to define overcome.

 

Overcoming sin is an objective spiritual state.  We have overcome sin, but the Bible defines that differently than you do.  Your fleshly, man-made definition of overcoming sin means that one cannot commit a single sin.    The Bible places the emphasis of overcoming sin on faith in Christ.  He is the object of our faith, not our sinlessness.  I John 5:4-5 teaches us that we have overcome the world through our faith in Jesus Christ.  I am an overcomer.  That is objective fact of history and being an overcomer is rooted in faith with Christ as the object and basis of faith.  The occasion of my faith is His finished work on the cross.

 

The victory we have over sin in the Bible is defined as being no longer subjected to its curse.  We are set from the condemnation that is associated with being outside of Christ.   In Christ we have no more condemnation, we are set free from death.  We were separated from God, but now in Christ, we are separated unto God.  We are taken out of the kingdom of darkness and placed in Jesus.  We are taken out of Adam and placed in Christ.   I am full  justified and I am saved and secure but that is not based on anything I do or  anything I can manufacture.  All of that rooted solely in the work of Christ.

 

Please read Colossians 2:1-17 and Ephesians 4:17-32 before trying to use the verses about forgiving others. Forgiveness of others is what we are commanded to do or our sins will not be forgiven. Both of these passages speak of exactly what a Christian is to do in both getting sin completely out of their lives and producing the fruit of the Spirit part of which is forgiving because it demonstrates the love of God to others. When Paul speaks of growing in the Lord he emphasizes it whith you are doing well but excel still more. The doing well is never in view of striving against sins, it is always about doing more for the Lord, producing more fruit.

 

But that only makes my point.  Those verses are speaking to our duty to forgive within the context of the Christian community.   If Paul is envisioning a Christian community that never sins, that gets everything right, then calling on believers to being forgiving of one another makes no sense.  If Paul viewed Christians as those who never sinned, then his epistles should be laced with condemnation of them committing sins and he should be telling them that they are not really saved.   But that is not how his epistles are written.  Paul is not a dreamer, nor does he have some pie-in-the-sky view of Christians never committing a single sin.  

 

If we are still sinners as Christians then we are still under the Law for the Law is not for the righteous but for the ungodly and the sinners. Peter talks about the difficulty of entering heaven. 1 Peter 4:17-19 NASB

For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved , what will become of the godless man and the sinner ? Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

Notice it is with difficulty that the righteous are saved. Living a life in which sin still remains is easy. Living a life free from sin is difficult because it requires giving all of self to Christ. We are also told that those who wish to live godly lives will be persecuted. And Christ says that the world will hate us because it hated Him. Why did the world hate Christ? It was because His life demonstrated to the world what kind of people they were. If sin remains in our life, the only reason the world would hate us because we are claiming to be saved while we are living like them, that is "in sin". We must be different than the world and in order to be different we can not be like them. We are to Light unto the world and there can be no darkness in the Light we are showing.

 

Ah yes...  Another person who doesn't pay attention to context or line of thought...    

 

Peter isn't talking about be saved in the sense of salvation from sin.   The words for salvation or "saved" are used in the New Testament in several different ways.  Salvation isn't just spiritual.  It refers to preservation, restoration, security, healing, and deliverance.   Peter isn't talking about being saved from sin.  He is talking about preservation in the midst of suffering.   He is not saying that it is hard for people to be saved from sin.   We are saved from sin by God's grace, not our own efforts.  If you read the context, Peter is talking about Christians enduring suffering and the "salvation" mentioned in that context is connected to be saved or preserved in it.  It can also reference the final deliverance of the believer in the midst of it.   I'm sorry, but you don't know how to read the Bible and you don't know what you are talking about.

 

It is a process of continully increasing in love. Again, scripture never speaks of striving against sin. It says resist the devil and he will flee from you. Take up the shield of faith and you will be able to extinguish ALL the flamng arrows of satan. It never says you will win some and lose some. It says we will be victorious. Please stick to what the Bible says about being able to overcome sin.

 

Actually, the Bible never promises that you will never sin.    What we are striving agianst is our fleshly nature.  I am dead to sin.  Sin has no power over me.  The power of sin was broken at the cross.  I am struggling with sin, per se.  I am struggling with the fleshly nature that still wants to commit sin.   That battle is never over because the sin nature was not eradicated or removed when we were born again.   That rebellious side of us is still alive and well and we are in a constant struggle with it and will be until it is finally eradicated.

 

I do believe God is patient not wanting any to perish and he will forgive us if we are truly repentent. However, His patience does not grant us imunity from the penalty of sin which remains.

 

Which is why you don't believe what the Bible says when it says there is no condemnation for those in Christ.   According to you there is still plenty of condemnation.   Christ's death on the cross removed the penalty of sin (the curse of the law).  He paid that penalty on our behalf.  To claim that you still have pay that penalty if you commit a single sin is a slap in the face to Christ and it really shows that your faith isn't in Jesus but in yourself and your efforts. 

 

There is no percentage of sin we must remove from our lives. It must be 100% removed through the power God has granted to us in His Son and Spirit. God is not partial. One sin is they same as 10,000 sins. The only sin greater than all others is the one that is not overcome. We cannot not serve both God and the devil. We will love the one and hate the other. If sin still remains in us then Christ says we do not love Him because we are not keeping His commandments which means we love the devil. A Christian who continues to live in sin is the devil's greatest tool for keep both believers and non-believers under his control. Believing we will not suffer for continuing to disobey God is believing the same lie Eve fell for. The devil told Eve that she wouldn't die for eating of the tree, saying God knew that if they ate of it they would become like Him. He told them a half truth. God wants us today to be like Him in our lives and disobeying Him has never boded well for anyone.

 

The problem is that Jesus has already overcome and we have overcome by our faith in Jesus.   If salvation hinges on us being absolutely perfect 100% of the time then the work of Christ on the cross is meaningless.

 

You don't understand grace.   What would happen if you had a fender bender (and the accident was your fault) and when you call the insurance company, you discover that they only cover your car when you are accident free?    Don't you buy insurance just in case you do have an accident?   What good is insurance if your only covered when you nothing happens?    What's the point?   It's useless...   You don't go around having accidents every day.  It's the first accident you've ever had that you were the one at fault, but the insurance company drops you the minute you have the accident?    If they did that how many lawsuits would be filed against an insurance company who practiced that kind of business?

 

Your view of grace is that grace is only there for those who don't mess up.   Salvation is only for perfect people who never sin. What's the point of grace if grace is only for perfect people?   The whole concept of grace is that it is God's mercy that is given to you in spite of the fact that you deserve God's contempt.   God is giving you favor that you can't earn, and don't merit in any way shape or form.    By nature, grace is something you can't be good enough to deserve.   Grace is a gift that is solely at the behest and good will of the giver.  

 

You view salvation as a reward for living right.   But the Bible teaches that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23).   Salvation is not something we can be good enough to earn or deserve because it is based on grace, which is not rooted in performance.   You are trusting in self and good works and not in Christ.  You are relying on performance, person merit and personal effort and not on God's grace. 

[OneLight]

 

 

I don't believe being commanded to be perfect, holy, blameless, to prove ourselves innocent and blameless are given as goals.  They are most certainly commands.  What we have been promised is that there is no sin which we can not bear and that he will always provide the way out.  We have been told that if we practice the fruit of the Spirit then we will never stumble.

You say you still sin, yet you still say it is possible not to sin in this life. You are a contradiction to your own teachings/theology. I don't understand why you continue to tell people they can live a life of sin when scripture constantly tells us to beware of what we do so we don't sin.

I would be a contradiction if I claimed I was living according to the Spirit when I wasn't. Unlike you I am not afraid of admitting I have not fully given my life to Christ. I know I can't do it on my own, but I also can't do it until I give up myself and let the Spirit lead me. Not being what I know we are supposed to be doesn't mean it isn't true. I have tried to destroy my own belief because I know what it currently means will hapen to me if I don't fully give myself to Christ. What each of you has failed to understand is that you claim to have given your life to Christ while at the same time serving the one you obey (that would be the devil) when you commit sin. When you sin it means you are a slave to sin. Read John 8. Christ makes some major statements withrespect to everything I have been saying.

John 8:12, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." Jesus says follows Him, not just believes in Him.

John 8:28-35, 37-44 So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him." As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father." They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:51-52 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'

Let us rehash the words of Christ:

1. He who follows Him will not walk in darkness.

2. The Father did not leave Him because He ALWAYS did the things that were pleasing to Him.

3. To those who believed He told them if they continue in His word they will truly be disciples of His and they will know the truth and the truth will set them free.

4. He also said "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." He says if they commit sin they are a slave to sin.

5. They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham." Notice Christ said to do the deeds of Abraham not just his faith.

The only scripture that tells me that we will never stumble is not about the fruit of the Spirit, but found in 2 Peter 1:5-22

 

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The things Peter is speaking about are found in verses 5-10a. The Fruit of the Spirit is found in Galatians 5:22-26

 

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

This passage tells us there is no law against any of His fruit, not that if we do them we will not stumble, as you claim. It is best to not add to scripture, but to take it at it's rightful context.

With the list given in 2 Peter is not the fruit of the Spirit which we are adding to our faith then they must be the wrks of man. If this is the case then by practicing the works of man we will never stumble and thus the entrance will be opened unto us for what we have dne instead of what the Spirit has done through us. We will not do any of the things listed in 2 Peter with out the HS which is one of the promises spoken of in the first four verses through which we will escape the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Let us compare the two lists.

2 peter 1                                        Galatians 5

faith                                                faithfulness

virtue                                              goodness

knowledge                                      This comes from the Spirit who instructs us.

self control                                      self control

perseverence                                  long suffering

godliness                                        joy, peace, gentleness, faithfulness

brotherly kindness                          kindness

love love

I don't know about you but the lists look pretty much identical. Would you like to resind your statement that what is spoken of in 2 Peter 1 or are you going to insist that they must be the work of man and we save ourselves?

 

 

2 Peter 1:5-22 are instruction on how to grow in Christ so we can be sure of our calling and election, which is where we find the statement that we will "never stumble" if we follow these instructions.  Your claim was that this promise was given about the fruits, which it was not.  None of these steps are possible in Christ without Him changing us from the inside out, leading us through the Holy Spirit.

 

You will also notice that the fruit belongs to the Holy Spirit, not us.  Without His Spirit living in and through us, the fruit would not be there.

 

The problem I see with your rejection of 2 Peter as instructions is it does not fit into your theology.  2 Peter is how we, through Christ, achieve the love He wants us to have in Him toward others, one step at a time.  You can argue all you want, but scripture speaks for itself, and never does it say it is the work of men ... you did. 

[enoob57]

That which I cannot do for myself I must look to God for the accomplishment... as the

ultimate witness of this lies in the beginning/ending testament of God

Gen 15:17

17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and

it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp

that passed between those pieces.

KJV

all that Abraham offered in the eternal covenant was that which could not save and slept while God radidfied by His

Own self the eternity of His determination

Heb 10:4

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats

should take away sins.

KJV

The N.T. upholds this determination of God

Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of

yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man

should boast.

KJV

Where by we see the work within us as that of following God and by that following we place our faith that it is God

within us

Phil 2:13

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of

his good pleasure.

KJV

This is why in the beginning we must do this

Phil 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as

in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

KJV

The fear lies here due to the fact that we are not producing a perfect love and that would be the sin of vanity

1 Cor 13

for why would we look to ourselves to produce only that which God is able to maintain?

1 John 4:18-19

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear:

because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made

perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us.

KJV

People who will stand before Jesus on what they have done will perish but those who stand before Him on the basis of

what He has done will remain with Him for He cannot deny Himself

2 Tim 2:13

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

KJV

Love, Steven

Edited January 5, 2015 by enoob57

[Joshua-777]

 

Rom./ 7:14-25 pertains to Paul's struggle with sin.  Paul is not talking about an unbeliever.  Unbelievers don't struggle with sin.  There is a difference between struggling with sin and being a slave to it.  Paul is explaining the struggle had as a believer in vv. 22-23/

 

 

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.(Rom 7:22-23)/

 

The grammatical structure in the Greek shows us that this is not a pre-Christian struggle that Paul is depicting.  Paul is speaking in the present tense of his experience as a believer. /

 

Paul struggled for some time with unforgiveness toward John Mark after John Mark abandoned him on a missionary journey.  /His unforgiveness was so bad that it caused him to sever his relationship with Barnabas and the Bible never tells us if Barnabas and Paul ever forgave each other over that.   So to say that Paul never struggled with sin after he got born again, is simply false./

 

Romans 7:1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—

Paul isn't talking about an unbeliever in Romans 7 but a Jew who is trying to follow God under the law. As Paul said in 7:10 "I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death." The law reveals sin, but condemns us instead of bringing life. The law could not bring righteousness, that was the problem with the Romans 7 man.

The conclusion

Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.

Romans 6 is talking about how we died to sin, we are no longer slaves to sin, we died to the law so we can be married to another, Romans 8 is talking about how we can walk according to the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the flesh.

When I was a new believer, I used Romans 7 as a license to sin. I remember buying a case of beer because I thought, well even Paul struggled with sin. I didn't realize that there was grace available to overcome. I didn't realize how powerful the love and grace of God is.

2 Corinthians 3:9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

With Paul and unforgiveness, you can see he had a dispute with Barnabas and Mark, and wouldn't let Mark jump back into what they labored for, but there is no scriptural evidence for unforgiveness, there is no passages saying Paul was dealing with unforgiveness. Paul Himself even said, "Be angry but do not sin" in Ephesians. So the dispute with Barnabas does not mean Paul was sinning.

 

"The mistake you and others are making is the assumption that if a person commits a single sin it means that they have not overcome sin.  Anyone who thinks that they NEVER sin as a believer is a fraud."

 

 

And those commandments would be superfluous if it were the case that the Bible antici/pates that believer never commit a single sin.    All of the commandments about forgiveness and forbearing others  in the church, our fellow believers, make no sense if the Bible anticipates that we will never sin.   Paul dealt with sin constantly in the Church. /

 

Your assuming I'm making those assumptions.

Christ overcame sin and made us new in Him. I do not believe we have a sin nature when we come to the Lord, we have a new heart, but a mindset wired to the old one. We have been given a new nature, but we still believe we are the old creation. When I came to the Lord about 11 years ago, I ran back to drugs for a year right after I got saved and it no longer satisfied me. I was convicted and more depressed instead of high and comfortable, What was going on was my nature was different, and sin was violating my new nature.  I do not believe that we lose the capacity to sin when we come to the Lord but the nature of it. We need to be renewed to who we are in Him. We died and our lives are hidden in Him. I died, and who I am is fully in Christ.

Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature, yet they sinned. That shows that it doesn't take a sin nature to sin, it takes free will and the ability to believe a lie. The devil lies about who we are. God says we are His Children, created in righteousness and holiness. If you believe you are still the old, you are believing a lie.

I know it is hard for some Christians to accept, but we are still sinner.  We are r/edeemed sinners, but we are still sinners.   We are objectively holy and blamess and righteous, but what you need to understand is that those things are "imputed" to us.  They are not inherently a part of us and won't be until we receive our glorified bodies./

 

I believe if someone gives you a gift it is yours. We have been given a gift of righteousness, it's ours. I can believe I'm righteous and I can reckon myself dead to sin because of what Jesus did on the cross, and when I have my new glorified body, who I am will be fully revealed. If a sinner is redeemed, he is no longer a sinner. He is made a saint, if he does sin, he doesn't realize who he is. We are growing into the reality of being His children. We become partakers of the divine nature, His nature is our born again nature.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

 

2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

3 Peter 1:4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

 

That is a process over time.  We are daily being changed.  The notion that we are living perfectly sinless is not part of that; in fact, it would speak to the exact opposite. /

 

It is a process, but the process is believe that you are who God says you are. Your capacity to sin is to the degree of your unrenewed mind. We are all in the process of being renewed to the reality of the New man we are, created in righteousness and holiness. We are not born again sinners, who we are as Born again is who we truly are, we just believe we're still the old man.

We are no longer bound to sin, we don't have to sin. What sin is there that Holy Spirit lacks the power to help us overcome Shiloh? Can you name one sin that is to big for Holy Spirit to change and empower us to overcome?

 

[Guest shiloh357]

///////////////

 

Rom./ 7:14-25 pertains to Paul's struggle with sin.  Paul is not talking about an unbeliever.  Unbelievers don't struggle with sin.  There is a difference between struggling with sin and being a slave to it.  Paul is explaining the struggle had as a believer in vv. 22-23/

 

 

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.(Rom 7:22-23)/

 

The grammatical structure in the Greek shows us that this is not a pre-Christian struggle that Paul is depicting.  Paul is speaking in the present tense of his experience as a believer. /

 

Paul struggled for some time with unforgiveness toward John Mark after John Mark abandoned him on a missionary journey.  /His unforgiveness was so bad that it caused him to sever his relationship with Barnabas and the Bible never tells us if Barnabas and Paul ever forgave each other over that.   So to say that Paul never struggled with sin after he got born again, is simply false./

 

/

Romans 7:1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—

Paul isn't talking about an unbeliever in Romans 7 but a Jew who is trying to follow God under the law. "I found that the ver/y commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death." The law reveals sin, but does condemns us instead of bringing life. The law could not bring righteousness, that was the problem with the Romans 7 man./

Paul is talking TO Jewish objectors in verse one and following through v. 13 and in those verses you can make the case that Paul is dealing with his life prior to being a believer, but that changes at v. 14.  Paul is using a common form of rhetoric in the first century that basically uses an imaginary interlocutor to spar with.  Paul as a former Pharisee understands and is able to anticipate how his opponents who live within the framework of the Torah  will respond to what he just finished saying in Romans 6.   Remember that Romans 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are all part of one singular line of thought that Paul is developing.

 

The first part of Romans 7 is dealing with the law. (vv. 1-13)  The second half of Romans 7 is dealing with the flesh.  (vv. 14-25).  Appeal is made to change form the use of the past tense in vv. 7-13 to the present tense in vv. 14-25.  Thus, Paul’s experience prior to conversion is contained in the first part and his present experience as a believer is contained in the second part.   The fact that there is conflict would indicate a believer because an unbeliever doesn’t necessarily have any desire to live a holy life.  You need to really read the chapter and follow the thought line.

 

Paul isn't talking about an unbeliever in Romans 7 but a Jew who is trying to follow God under the law.

 

 

 

 

???   Uh, no.   That would be the textbook definition of a Jewish unbeliever. 

 

When I was a new believer, I used Romans 7 as a license to sin. I remember buying a case of beer because I thought, well even Paul struggled with sin. I didn't realize that there was grace available to overcome. I didn't realize how powerful the love and grace of God is.

 

Yeah, and that was an erroneous use of that passage when you were an unbeliever.  But you were a new believer.   You can't hardly judge a passage of Scripture based on your abuse of it when you didn't really know the Bible in the first place at that point in your life.  

 

With Paul and unforgiveness, you can see he had a dispute with Barnabas and Mark, and wouldn't let Mark jump back into what they labored for, but there is no scriptural evidence for unforgiveness, there is no passages saying Paul was dealing with unforgiveness. Paul Himself even said, "Be angry but do not sin" in Ephesians. So the dispute with Barnabas does not mean Paul was sinning.

 

Yeah, nice way of trying to get around the obvious.   Paul had not forgive John Mark and it is evident given the sharp dispute.  Paul was not willing to give the boy a second chance.  Paul had written him off and Barnabas and Paul had such a sharp disagreement that they had to part ways and it wasn't until Paul was much older that he finally had use for Mark.  if we were to counsel people to day under similar circumstances, we would advise them to start with forgiving the person they had a grudge against.  Paul had a grudge against John Mark and that grudge negatively affected his ministry.   whether you like it or not, whether you are willing to make room for it or not, Paul sinned and that's  how it is.  That's a simple fact you just need to come to grips with, even if it doesn't jive with your theology.

 

I think you are assuming that I am making that assumption. I do not believe we have a sin nature when we come to the Lord, we have a new heart, but a mindset wired to the old one.

 

And you would be wrong on both counts.  I am working off direct comments from you.   And we DO have a sin nature.  You have one now and Paul says that our flesh, our sin nature still wars against the Spirit in Galatians 5.

 

We have been given a new nature, but we still believe we are the old creation.

 

Yes, we are a new creation and we have a new and transformed heart.  The "real me,"  the part that goes to heaven when I die was completely transformed.   But the unregenerate part of me was not eradicated.  The flesh and its desires were never eradicated.   It would be nice if the old nature were completely removed, but it wasn't.  Hence Paul's struggle in Rom. 7:14-15 and the struggle mentioned in Gal. 5:17.  

 

I do not believe that we lose the capacity to sin, when we come to the Lord but the nature of it.

 

Romans 7:14-25 and Gal. 5:17 would indicate that you are in error.

 

Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature, yet they sinned. That shows that it doesn't take a sin nature to sin, it takes free will and the ability to believe a lie. The devil lies about who we are. God says we are His Children, created in righteousness and holiness. If you believe you are still the old, you are believing a lie.

 

The argument I am advancing isn't that it takes a sinful nature to sin.   Jesus didn't have a sinful nature, but He could have sinned.    When Adam and Eve sinned their nature became corrupt and we have inherited that nature.  That is why we are sinners.  We are sinners because that is what we are born into.  We don't become sinners because we sin.  We sin because we have a flesh nature that wars against the Spirit in the heart of a believer.

 

I believe if someone gives you a gift it is yours. We have been given a gift of righteousness, it's ours. I can believe I'm righteous and I can reckon myself dead to sin because of what Jesus did on the cross, and when I have my new glorified body, who I am will be fully revealed. If a sinner is redeemed, he is no longer a sinner. He is made a saint, if he does sin, he doesn't realize who he is. We are growing into being His kids. We become partakers of the divine nature, they are part of us.

 

You need to understand that the gift we are given is eternal life.  Righteousness has only been imputed to us.  You are not living in actual righteousness, according to Romans 4.  Righteousness has been imputed to you by faith.  You will become inherently righteous when your sin nature is eradicated, but until then the righteousness by which you are justified is simply credited to your account for a future time, just like it was with Abraham.  Justification, in the Greek, is a legal declaration of right standing.    Given that justification is only a legal declaration and not the infusing of righteousness to your spirit, you are still a sinner.  You are justified, acquitted and no longer condemned, but you are still a sinner albeit in a redeemed state.

 

 

It is a process, but the process is believe that you are who God says you are.

 

No, the process is the daily work of the Holy Spirit in delivering us from old habits and ways of living.  We are daily being conformed into the image of Christ.  It is way, way more than believing who you are in Christ.  That has NOTHING to do with the process of sanctification.   it means that we have no arrived at perfect sinlessness. 

 

We are all in the process of being renewed to the reality of the New man we are, created in righteousness and holiness. We are not born again sinners, who we are as Born again is who we truly are, we just believe we're still the old man.

 

Your capacity to sin is to the degree of your unrenewed mind.

 

That is also wrong.   Your capacity to is based on the sin nature. 

 

We are no longer bound to sin, we don't have to sin, What sin is there that Holy Spirit lacks the power to help us overcome Shiloh? Can you name one sin that is to big for Holy Spirit to change and empower us to overcome?

 

 

I have already overcome of all of it.  I overcame it all when I put my faith in Jesus per I John 5:4-5.  I am not trying to overcome sin.  Jesus overcame it for me and He has allowed me to participate in His victory.  I am dead to sin.   I am no longer under its power because of what Jesus did.

 

Where you fall into error is thinking that "overcoming" sin means that you never, ever commit a single sin.  That is not how the Bible characterizes overcoming sin.  The Bible characterizes overcoming sin from the vantage point of Christ's victory over sin on the cross and the freedom from its power that we are participate in.  We are free from its power to separate us from God.  We are free from its power to condemn.  

 

John wrote this:

 

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.  (1Jn 1:9-2:1-2)

 

The Bible doesn't anticipate that we will never ever commit a single sin after we get saved or that we will ever reach that place in this life. God has made a gracious provision for us when we do sin, but even then confession of sin isn't for God's benefit.  I don't confess sin to get re-saved.   Sin has been paid for.  The penalty has been fully paid.  I don't have to die for my sin. Jesus paid the penalty in full and God is satisfied with what Jesus did on the cross.  I am free from the power of sin to separate me from God.  I am free from the penalty of hell.

 

You are not walking in victory over sin if your is to get through the day without sinning.  If that's your goal your are still living in a prison of performance-based acceptance where you are only accepted by God if you do everything right.

 

God is not interested in us performing good enough for Him.  That's impossible; you will never be good enough on the basis of your best efforts.  God's goal is bring us into relationship with Him. 

 

[Joshua-777]

 

Paul is talking TO Jewish objectors in verse one and following through v. 13 and in those verses you can make the case that Paul is dealing with his life prior to being a believer, but that changes at v. 14.  Paul is using a common form of rhetoric in the first century that basically uses an imaginary interlocutor to spar with.  Paul as a former Pharisee understands and is able to anticipate how his opponents who live within the framework of the Torah  will respond to what he just finished saying in Romans 6.   Remember that Romans 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are all part of one singular line of thought that Paul is developing.

The first part of Romans 7 is dealing with the law. (vv. 1-13)  The second half of Romans 7 is dealing with the flesh.  (vv. 14-25).  Appeal is made to change form the use of the past tense in vv. 7-13 to the present tense in vv. 14-25.  Thus, Paul’s experience prior to conversion is contained in the first part and his present experience as a believer is contained in the second part.   The fact that there is conflict would indicate a believer because an unbeliever doesn’t necessarily have any desire to live a holy life.  You need to really read the chapter and follow the thought line.

 

The first part of that is about the law, and the second is a law in the flesh, but there's a third law, the law of the Spirit, a new way to serve God that overcomes the flesh.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The new way of the Spirit, the law of the Spirit has set us free from the law of sin and death (Flesh), because the law (Torah) was weak and couldn't free us, God freed us by sending His son.

Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit  who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The old way, (law) Could not help us overcome the flesh, the new way, Spirit does.

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 

Yeah, nice way of trying to get around the obvious.   Paul had not forgive John Mark and it is evident given the sharp dispute.  Paul was not willing to give the boy a second chance.  Paul had written him off and Barnabas and Paul had such a sharp disagreement that they had to part ways and it wasn't until Paul was much older that he finally had use for Mark.  if we were to counsel people to day under similar circumstances, we would advise them to start with forgiving the person they had a grudge against.  Paul had a grudge against John Mark and that grudge negatively affected his ministry.   whether you like it or not, whether you are willing to make room for it or not, Paul sinned and that's  how it is.  That's a simple fact you just need to come to grips with, even if it doesn't jive with your theology

 

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Paul labored and risked his life to establish a foundation and was going back to pour into the work of his labor. Mark bailed out the first time, should he be a partaker of the spoil?  Also, it could have been an issue of Marks character at the time or still dealing with an immaturity and would have been a danger to what was planted, Barnabas had emotional attachment because they were family so Barnabas stuck up for Mark.  Was Paul in the right in not taking Mark, or was Barnabas in error? You see them reconciled later, but it doesn't give you any evidence enough to make a claim that Paul was in unforgiveness.

Wouldn't unforgiveness defile the conscience?

Acts 23:1Then Paul, looking earnestly at the council, said, “Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.”

And you would be wrong on both counts.  I am working off direct comments from you.   And we DO have a sin nature.  You have one now and Paul says that our flesh, our sin nature still wars against the Spirit in Galatians 5.

 

Our flesh is not our nature, but the carnal mind that is at enmity against God.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Ephesians 5:22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Transformation happens as our mind is renewed.

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

 

We sin because we have a flesh nature that wars against the Spirit in the heart of a believer.

 

We are no loner bound to live by the flesh. Holy Spirit empowers us to put to death the deeds of our flesh.

 

You need to understand that the gift we are given is eternal life.  Righteousness has only been imputed to us.  You are not living in actual righteousness, according to Romans 4.  Righteousness has been imputed to you by faith.  You will become inherently righteous when your sin nature is eradicated, but until then the righteousness by which you are justified is simply credited to your account for a future time, just like it was with Abraham.  Justification, in the Greek, is a legal declaration of right standing.    Given that justification is only a legal declaration and not the infusing of righteousness to your spirit, you are still a sinner.  You are justified, acquitted and no longer condemned, but you are still a sinner albeit in a redeemed state.

 

I'm righteous because He is righteous. He paid for all my sin on the cross, it's gone. He gave me His righteousness, imputed through faith, but it is real righteousness. Think about it, God declares us righteous, how dare we say, well we're not really righteous, God just pretends that we are. If we believe we are sinners, we will sin by faith, but if we believe that we are righteous, holy, a new creation, our actions will follow. Our actions follow what we believe. I am not a sinner, I am a saint, I am a child of God, and though sometimes I can slip into sin, that is not who I am. I believe that God living in me makes me a holy vessel, I'm a house fit for a King, and He loves to live in me. I have so much joy with God knowing I'm in right standing with Him, that He made me righteous, that there is nothing that can separate me from Him, and I have the joy to partake in His nature. Believing this adds such a deep intimacy with God because your prayer life and relationship with God becomes praise, worship and adoration in awe of who He is instead of just sin management.

No, the process is the daily work of the Holy Spirit in delivering us from old habits and ways of living.  We are daily being conformed into the image of Christ.  It is way, way more than believing who you are in Christ.  That has NOTHING to do with the process of sanctification.   it means that we have no arrived at perfect sinlessness.

 

The process of understanding who we are as Children of God and being transformed into the image of Christ is delivering us from old habits and ways of living. That has everything to do with the process of sanctification. I'm a child of God, a new creation, my old man died, and I'm alive in Him, my life is hidden in Christ. AS I discover Christ, I discover who I am in Him.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

I have already overcome of all of it.  I overcame it all when I put my faith in Jesus per I John 5:4-5.  I am not trying to overcome sin.  Jesus overcame it for me and He has allowed me to participate in His victory.  I am dead to sin.   I am no longer under its power because of what Jesus did.

 

 

YES! Praise the Lord that we can participate the in His victory!  We are dead to sin, we are no longer under it's power praise the Lord! I am in full agreement!

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

 

Where you fall into error is thinking that "overcoming" sin means that you never, ever commit a single sin.  That is not how the Bible characterizes overcoming sin.  The Bible characterizes overcoming sin from the vantage point of Christ's victory over sin on the cross and the freedom from its power that we are participate in.  We are free from its power to separate us from God.  We are free from its power to condemn.

John wrote this:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.  (1Jn 1:9-2:1-2)

 

So your saying its right to believe that we can participate in Christs victory, but wrong to believe that His victory can manifest in and through our lives? I thought we're supposed to become like Christ. We are free from the separation sin causes, we are free from condemnation, but we are also free from participating in sin. Your a slave to who you obey, and you no longer have to obey sin!

Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

We are to reckon we are dead to sin, yet be convinced that sin is alive and well in us because of our nature? That doesn't make sense.

Romans 6:11Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

The Bible doesn't anticipate that we will never ever commit a single sin after we get saved or that we will ever reach that place in this life. God has made a gracious provision for us when we do sin, but even then confession of sin isn't for God's benefit.  I don't confess sin to get re-saved.   Sin has been paid for.  The penalty has been fully paid.  I don't have to die for my sin. Jesus paid the penalty in full and God is satisfied with what Jesus did on the cross.  I am free from the power of sin to separate me from God.  I am free from the penalty of hell.

 

Jesus invites you into a lifestyle of intimacy where we die to the life that fell short of His glory and become a new creation made as a spectacle of His righteousness, nature, and glory as children of God. The bible anticipates that we learn Christ and put off who we were in the flesh by renewing our minds.

 

You are not walking in victory over sin if your is to get through the day without sinning.  If that's your goal your are still living in a prison of performance-based acceptance where you are only accepted by God if you do everything right.

God is not interested in us performing good enough for Him.  That's impossible; you will never be good enough on the basis of your best efforts.  God's goal is bring us into relationship with Him.

 

Yes! Yes and amen, it's all about relationship. We can never preform good enough for Him, truth is He preformed for us, He lived righteously and took our sins upon Himself and gave us His righteousness. We walk in His victory, and it's all out of relationship with Him! That is God's goal and the basis of eternal life.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I went from striving to overcoming sin to just falling in love with Jesus As I grow in intimacy with God, I naturally do the things that are pleasing to Him. It's not forced or a struggle, When we live in intimacy with Him, we are empowered to righteousness. I'm blessed with a good marriage. I don't need a list on the door saying, "No cheating, no flirting with other guys, no drugs, no etc." Out of our relationship, we naturally do the things that please each other. In the same way, out of our relationship with God we are empowered to live pleasing to Him. We want to, it's no longer contrary to our nature.

I don't walk righteous and live holy because I want to be accepted or earn His love, I do because I have been accepted and I know His love and obedience to Him is a responce to that love.