The 144,000 First-Fruits

[Salty]

My understanding of the Rev.7 chapter about God's servants being 'sealed' is about the 144,000 mentioned, and the "great multitude" (representing Gentile believers), BOTH, together, as Christ's Body.

 

I used to believe the idea that many have about the 144,000, thinking they were orthodox Jews that come to Christ Jesus only during the "great tribulation" timing, what some denominations call "tribulation saints". But that was before I got into a deeper Bible study in the Old Testament about the tribes of Israel, how God split them into two separate kingdoms that also was called 'houses', and how one house became separated from the other with prophecy of their joining back together again only coming in final with Christ's future return (like Ezek.37 two sticks prophecy for one example). That means the two 'houses' will remain apart until Jesus comes.

 

One 'house' written as "house of Israel", after God split Israel in Solomon's days, is called by scholars 'ten lost tribes of Israel'. Some Jewish scholars believe they will be rejoined under Messiah, and others do not. I believe they will be because of the prophecies written in God's Word about them specifically.

 

Some of the problems that come from not understanding that important history from the OT Books is with misrepresenting Israelites of the seed. For example, the other 'house' that was separated from the ten tribes ("house of Israel") was the "house of Judah" (3 tribes). The "house of Judah" became known as 'Jews' (per Jewish historian Josephus, 100 A.D.). With many's thinking today, they consider all Israelites with that title of Jew, when that title only came from the sole tribe of Judah and was then applied to the tribes of Benjamin, Levi, including some small remnants of the ten tribes that left the northern kingdom in Jeroboam's days, and foreigners that lived in the lands of Judea.

 

Does this Bible history sound boring? It may sound that way to many brethren, but it is very important to understand it, otherwise one will not properly understand a lot of Bible prophecies for the end as to whom they are meant for, including this matter of the 144,000 of Rev.7.

 

Per 1 Kings 11, God chose Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to be king over the northern ten tribes which lived in the northern lands of Israel in Solomon's day. Many times in OT prophecy after that the name "Ephraim" is often used to represent the separated ten tribes of the "house of Israel" (like in Hosea). Because God through His servant Jacob gave each one of his 12 sons a prophecy of what would befall them in the "last days" per Genesis 49, that reveals the ten tribes are very well and active in the last days, though their identity and location may not be that well known.

 

That also relates to an important prophecy God gave to Jacob that his seed would become 'a nation, and a company of nations' per Genesis 35, and that his grandson Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" per Genesis 48. Since per God's Word the tribe of Ephraim became head over the ten tribes, that prophecy is a very important clue and direct pointer about the ten tribes of Israel in the last days apart from the "house of Judah" in Jerusalem.

 

It also means one must take a closer look at the tribes mentioned with the 144,000 of Rev.7 to know who all they represent.

 

House of Judah (Jews):  tribes of Judah, Levi, Benjamin

 

House of Israel:  tribes of Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nephthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph

 

 

If you'll notice, the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are left out of that list. In total, counting Levi, there are actually 13 tribes of Israel. Levi's portion was to be God, so they were not appointed a specific parcel of land. Instead of Ephraim in that list, we are given the name Joseph who was the father of both Manasseh and Ephraim (Gen.48).

 

When Apostle Paul was preaching to both believing scattered Israelites and Gentiles in Romans 9, he quoted from the Old Testament Books of the prophets Isaiah and Hosea. From his quote from the Book of Hosea, he included both believing Israelite and believing Gentile in Christ's Church involving that passage of those God once called 'lo-ami' (not My people) through Christ Jesus now becoming 'Ami' (My people).

 

That specific Hosea prophecy was originally written to Ephraim and the ten tribed house of Israel. That's who God sent Hosea to speak to per that Book. So how could Apostle Paul apply a prophecy specifically written to Ephraim and the ten tribes also for believing Gentiles? By that Apostle Paul revealed he understood the fate of the lost ten tribes under Ephraim all the way into the foundation of the early Christian Church.

 

So look at that 144,000 list again, excepting the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi who were known as Jews (and still are today), the rest of those Israelite tribes were separated long ago, and scattered among the Gentiles long before Judah, Benjamin, and Levi were. Thusly, Paul revealed there were scattered ten tribe Israelites among those Romans he was preaching to, and their being part of Christ's Church.

 

Would that then mean those ten tribe Israelites among those believers in Romans 9 which Paul preached to likely would have been 'sealed' by The Holy Spirit? Most definitely, yes. Then how can those NOT be part of that 144,000 list of tribes that are 'sealed' for the end? In Romans 11 Apostle Paul specifically mentions a remant of the seed of Israel which God Himself preserved according to His election of grace. With that Romans 11:1-5 group, we can easily include members among all the 12 tribes as that remnant. But they are not all Jews of the "house of Judah", they also are ten tribe Israelites from the other tribes of Israel that were separated from the Jews long ago.

 

And finally, how can Israelites of the seed that are also members in Christ's Church not... be joined back to their original habitations along with the "house of Judah" like God's Word says will occur after Christ's return??? Just because one born of the seed of Israel becomes a believer on Christ Jesus, The Messiah, and thus a member of His Church, does that mean they forfeit their heritage of the nation of God's Israel for the future? No way! Then how in the world do believing Gentiles in Christ's Church fit in with them under Christ? We are joined... back with those believers of the seed of Israel, and we BOTH, together, make up Christ's many-membered Body, His Church.

 

This is why I believe beyond any doubt, why the "great multitude" of Gentiles are being mentioned also in that Revelation 7 chapter about God's sealing of His servants prior to the four winds blowing (i.e., prior to the Day of The Lord events with Jesus' coming) Revelation 9 gives us a major clue of what that Rev.7 'sealing' is about for the end. There we are told only those NOT having God's seal can be stung for five months. That means there is another group that CANNOT be subject to that stinging of Rev.9 in that time, and that is Christ's elect that are 'sealed' for the tribulation time.

[ghtan]

Hello ghtan,

 

Don't forget that the "rapture" is just a part of a larger event:

 

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.  1 Thess 4:15-17

 

There is a resurrection that precedes the "catching up".  The resurrection happens on the last day.

 

 

Hi Last Daze,

 

That the dead are also raised does not limit it to the first resurrection of Rev 20:5 - I assume this is what you are getting at - because the latter is only meant to differentiate it from the later resurrection implied in 20:13. After all, Jesus had been resurrected earlier, so too the holy people of Mt 27:52 and the two witnesses of Rev 11. Therefore, the "first resurrection" cannot possibly mean the first EVER resurrection.

 

Perhaps I should not stray from the focus of this thread, i.e. the 144k. If, as I think you are suggesting, the rapture happens together with the Second Coming in Rev 19, the whole church must have been around in ch 7. How then do you avoid the notion that God would be racially bias if he seals only Jewish believers?

 

Blessings.

Edited January 20, 2015 by ghtan

[ghtan]

 

Hi all,

 

I too believe that the 144k are ethnic Jews and that they are sealed during the tribulation, after the events of ch 6 but before God pours out his wrath in the form of the trumpet plagues of ch 8-9. However, God's decision to seal only 144k Jewish believers, and thus protect them from the trumpet plagues, would seem racially bias....unless all other believers are raptured at this point. That makes most sense to me, and therefore I believe in a mid-tribulation rapture.

Hi ghtan

 

Thank you for your input.

 

The scriptures indicate that the 144,000 are sealed before the 7 angels sound. 

The great tribulation consists of the saints having to make a big choice on which side they will go when it comes to their lives, (the Mark of the Beast)

....then being persecuted for making that choice if they refuse the mark,

and when this stage has been completed, tribulation will follow on the whole world now.  It's a great tribulation.  Everybody is affected.

Any man that receive the mark of the Beast will share in Babylon's punishment.

The scriptures say;

 Revelation 13:16   And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

 

He causes all (who are not in Christ) to receive his mark.

And we were warned;

Revelation 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

 

 

The scriptures say that the Christians will be persecuted first, then God's revenge will start on the world for what they did to the saints, and all those saints before them too.

It only makes sense to me that the Christians are put to a big test on whose side they will choose.  They will be forced to choose.  If they refuse the Mark of the Beast and suffer persecution, then they have chosen Christ.

 

If the ethnic Jews choose Christ, then they are also Christians and will go through the same tribulation.

...but if they are not Christians, then it makes no sense that they receive special protection, and as you said that would make God racially bias for all that follow Christ are one.  There's only two sides, and no middle ground.

 

We know there will be a remnant of Israel spared, but they will go through tribulation also with the rest of the world, and when Christ returns, he will stop that war, or no flesh will be saved.  The remnants will be amongst them that survive.

 

Mark 13:20   And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

 

The scriptures clearly state that the 144,000 are protected, as the 5th angel is instructed to only harm those who have not got the Seal of God on their forehead.

There are only 144,000 that are sealed.  It is clear.  No man can change what is written.

 

And we know the 144,000 are Christians, because they followed the Lamb wheresoever he went.  They were faultless before God.

They were followers of Christ.

 

There's a twist to this I know, but please be patient and we will get there.

 

 Hi Sister,

 

I am afraid you've lost me. I do not see how your post relates to mine. I too think that all end-time christians will have to go through a time of persecution before the rapture strikes. Hence why I am a mid-tribulationist and not a pre-tribulationist. If I am missing something you are saying, please clarify.

 

Blessings.

[ghtan]

Hi wingnut,

 

Sorry I messed up the quotes, so your post to which I am replying does not show up. But just to say that I think we are talking about two different sealing - one spiritual and one physical.

 

Regards.

Edited January 20, 2015 by ghtan

[Last Daze]

 

Hello ghtan,

 

Don't forget that the "rapture" is just a part of a larger event:

 

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.  1 Thess 4:15-17

 

There is a resurrection that precedes the "catching up".  The resurrection happens on the last day.

 

 

Hi Last Daze,

 

That the dead are also raised does not limit it to the first resurrection of Rev 20:5 - I assume this is what you are getting at - because the latter is only meant to differentiate it from the later resurrection implied in 20:13. After all, Jesus had been resurrected earlier, so too the holy people of Mt 27:52 and the two witnesses of Rev 11. Therefore, the "first resurrection" cannot possibly mean the first EVER resurrection.

 

Perhaps I should not stray from the focus of this thread, i.e. the 144k. If, as I think you are suggesting, the rapture happens together with the Second Coming in Rev 19, the whole church must have been around in ch 7. How then do you avoid the notion that God would be racially bias if he seals only Jewish believers?

 

Blessings.

 

 

Hi ghtan,

 

I think we've covered this but I can't remember if it was you who was involved in the discussion or not.  There have been several resurrections (Lazarus, etc.) where people have been raised from the dead but people are only resurrected once in order to put on immortality.  It happens according to this passage:

 

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.....But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory.  1 Corinthians 15:20-24, 54

 

I added v54 for context.  This chapter also has in it a reference to the resurrection-rapture as well.  Do the old testament saints and the two witnesses qualify as being "dead in Christ"?  I guess it depends on how technical you want to get.  Were they raised immortal?  I don't know.  I just try to go by what's written.

 

 

 

Perhaps I should not stray from the focus of this thread, i.e. the 144k. If, as I think you are suggesting, the rapture happens together with the Second Coming in Rev 19, the whole church must have been around in ch 7. How then do you avoid the notion that God would be racially bias if he seals only Jewish believers?

 

 

Racially biased?  That sounds like looking at scripture from the view of contemporary political correctness.  Does it seem fair that someone who works and hour should get the same wage as someone who has worked all day?  What seems right and fair to us may not be how God sees it.  God is sovereign and He can do whatever He wants and it will always be righteous and holy.  Just because the 144k are sealed does not mean that other believers won't be protected during the plagues.  Although we don't know specifically what the 144k do during the plagues, I imagine their seal will protect them as they go into hostile territory and echo the message of the two witnesses.  The rest of the believers I see as "sheltering in place" as the Israelis did in Egypt with the blood of the Lamb protecting them.  At least that's what makes the most sense to me....at this point in time.

[MorningGlory]

 

The scriptures clearly state that the 144,000 are protected, as the 5th angel is instructed to only harm those who have not got the Seal of God on their forehead.

There are only 144,000 that are sealed.  It is clear.  No man can change what is written.

 

And we know the 144,000 are Christians, because they followed the Lamb wheresoever he went.  They were faultless before God.

They were followers of Christ.

 

There's a twist to this I know, but please be patient and we will get there.

 

The 144,000 are made up of 12 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.  At no time does Scripture say, or infer, that they are Christians.

[wingnut-]

 

 

Thank you everyone.

 

Can anyone tell me when these 144,000 get sealed?

 

 

Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

At the midway point, right about the time the antichrist will rise from the fatal head wound.  Somewhere around the time of the 5th trumpet.

 

 

 

Rev 7:1   And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor an any tree.

 

Rev 7:2   And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea.

 

Rev 7:3   Saying Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 

Rev 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

 

Hi Wingnut.

 

It appears to me that the sealing is taking place just before the wrath of God starts.

Once the first angel sounds,  is when the real damage begins on the earth.

 

The first angel sounds after the Mark of the beast is issued.

There are only 7 angels in total, that send the plagues as instructed.

They sound the trumpet, then pour out the vial.

 

Rev 16:2   And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image.

 

So the sealing can't be on the 5th trumpet/vial, but before the first.

What do you think?

 

 

Hello again sister,

 

It is certainly possible that they could be, but specifically why I believe it happens at the midway point is based on Revelation 12.

 

Revelation 12:⁶ The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

 

Revelation 12:¹⁴ The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

 

Prior to this, it appears to me that the Jews will be in Jerusalem, practicing their sacrifices at the temple they will build.  As I said, it is possible that they are sealed prior to this, but it seems to me that it is at the midway point, when Satan is hurled down, is when things get nasty.  While I certainly think that the final judgements such as the 6th and 7th go hand in hand with each other, I am not sure of the exact sequencing on all of the others.  I think we agree that the same angels who have the trumpets also have the vials/bowls, but does scripture specify that they carry them all out together?  You have given me much to consider, God bless you.

[other one]

 

 

The scriptures clearly state that the 144,000 are protected, as the 5th angel is instructed to only harm those who have not got the Seal of God on their forehead.

There are only 144,000 that are sealed.  It is clear.  No man can change what is written.

 

And we know the 144,000 are Christians, because they followed the Lamb wheresoever he went.  They were faultless before God.

They were followers of Christ.

 

There's a twist to this I know, but please be patient and we will get there.

 

The 144,000 are made up of 12 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.  At no time does Scripture say, or infer, that they are Christians.

 

that is a very good point.

[other one]

 

  As I said, it is possible that they are sealed prior to this, but it seems to me that it is at the midway point, when Satan is hurled down, is when things get nasty. 

 

September 23, 2017

[wingnut-]

 

 

  As I said, it is possible that they are sealed prior to this, but it seems to me that it is at the midway point, when Satan is hurled down, is when things get nasty. 

 

September 23, 2017

 

 

Interesting, why would you say it is on this date?