Is church attendance required or even essential?

[ayin jade]

This book was a few books back before he really went off... but yes you are so right Ayin Jade I wouldn't go to a church that followed his teachings.

It is a shame, I think he was talented but fell away from the faith.

 

Unfortunately that happens. They leave their first love (the Lord).

[Guest]

I am really not sure that mega churches are scriptural.   The pastor isn't really a pastor.  He is not really accessible or touchable.   The church gets so huge that he can't really develop relationships with the people he shepherds.

 

It's sad that churches are forced to feel like they are in competition, but that is the result of appealing to people's flesh.  If Churches spent more time emphasizing the primacy of Scripture and spent less time trying to entertain people would come to church for the right reasons. 

 

We need Scripture driven churches. 

 

Agreed.

 

I have long thought that there is something wrong when you see a church growing to the size of some 5,000 or more "members" on Sunday -- but the church seems to have little or no effect on its surrounding community. The size of some of these megachurches is ridiculous (to me,) and I have to wonder why they don't start other churches around their areas. That's how the church started anyway, people got saved, trained, then went on to spread the gospel in their home areas. There are those that do church planting, etc. which is a good thing.

[Guest LadyC]

 

I am really not sure that mega churches are scriptural.   The pastor isn't really a pastor.  He is not really accessible or touchable.   The church gets so huge that he can't really develop relationships with the people he shepherds.

 

It's sad that churches are forced to feel like they are in competition, but that is the result of appealing to people's flesh.  If Churches spent more time emphasizing the primacy of Scripture and spent less time trying to entertain people would come to church for the right reasons. 

 

We need Scripture driven churches. 

 

Agreed.

 

I have long thought that there is something wrong when you see a church growing to the size of some 5,000 or more "members" on Sunday -- but the church seems to have little or no effect on its surrounding community. The size of some of these megachurches is ridiculous (to me,) and I have to wonder why they don't start other churches around their areas. That's how the church started anyway, people got saved, trained, then went on to spread the gospel in their home areas. There are those that do church planting, etc. which is a good thing.

 

 

definitely not a fan of mega-churches. and they look much different than they used to, has anyone noticed? one of the problems i had trying to find a church after i moved back here was one that had a real preacher. so many churches, even ones in small buildings or that rent space in a shopping center are satellite churches... they have a live video feed projected on a big screen that shows some preacher, often in another city or another state! that's ridiculous. 

 

one church, surprisingly enough, the first baptist church here in town, has satellite feeds in various parts of the church itself. they several services at the same time. if you like traditional hymns, you go to worship in one area. if you like contemporary worship, you go to that area. if you want a multi-cultural experience, there's yet another area where the worship band is more jazzy and features a brass section. after the worship music, you stay in that part of the church and watch the sermon on the big screen.

[Qnts2]

 

 

I am really not sure that mega churches are scriptural.   The pastor isn't really a pastor.  He is not really accessible or touchable.   The church gets so huge that he can't really develop relationships with the people he shepherds.

 

It's sad that churches are forced to feel like they are in competition, but that is the result of appealing to people's flesh.  If Churches spent more time emphasizing the primacy of Scripture and spent less time trying to entertain people would come to church for the right reasons. 

 

We need Scripture driven churches. 

 

Agreed.

 

I have long thought that there is something wrong when you see a church growing to the size of some 5,000 or more "members" on Sunday -- but the church seems to have little or no effect on its surrounding community. The size of some of these megachurches is ridiculous (to me,) and I have to wonder why they don't start other churches around their areas. That's how the church started anyway, people got saved, trained, then went on to spread the gospel in their home areas. There are those that do church planting, etc. which is a good thing.

 

 

definitely not a fan of mega-churches. and they look much different than they used to, has anyone noticed? one of the problems i had trying to find a church after i moved back here was one that had a real preacher. so many churches, even ones in small buildings or that rent space in a shopping center are satellite churches... they have a live video feed projected on a big screen that shows some preacher, often in another city or another state! that's ridiculous. 

 

one church, surprisingly enough, the first baptist church here in town, has satellite feeds in various parts of the church itself. they several services at the same time. if you like traditional hymns, you go to worship in one area. if you like contemporary worship, you go to that area. if you want a multi-cultural experience, there's yet another area where the worship band is more jazzy and features a brass section. after the worship music, you stay in that part of the church and watch the sermon on the big screen.

 

 

In the book of Acts, on the day of Pentacost when Peter was preaching, it says the '3000 were added to their number that day'. So in a one day time period, the Church jumped from about 70 to 3000. But it goes on to say that the Lord added to their number daily, those who were being saved. Wouldn't that have been a megachurch?

 

I personally prefer a small church. I am an introvert, but also a geek. I am not very good at speaking with people. And I don't usually start conversations, and am usually unable to keep a conversation going. Unless of course, I am talking geek stuff. I am most comfortable talking to an extrovert who will carry a conversation to keep it going.  If anyone has watched the show, Big Bang Theory, I would probably fit in.   In a small church, there is usually those few people who are real outgoing, and will greet and welcome others.

 

At the same time, a megachurch does quite well also. I do not have to worry about chit chat (which I find a mystery and haven't figured out). You can go in and out, without having to worry about appearing aloof ( when it is actually just shyness), because there are so many people, they do not bother to observe others. The megachurch in my area has a coffee cafe. They pipe the service on a big screen TV. You can sit, drink coffee or tea, eat a donut or scone, and enjoy the service.

 

I don't see a megachurch as unbiblical. Large numbers do not make a meeting of the saints, unbiblical. Today, most churches have pews which face a stage, so you are looking up to a stage, or looking at the backs of peoples heads. There is not any real interaction between people sitting in the pews. (Maybe a couple of minute meet and greet but nothing with real relational substance).     

[wingnut-]

I wanted to chime in again on this, with a viewpoint that has not yet been expressed, but for me lays at the heart of the problem.  What we really see here from those who are questioning church attendance and what qualifies as church attendance, all come back to one major issue.  In some way or manner, at some point, there has been a grievance in regards to backbiters, slanderers, and gossips.  This is a huge problem in the church today, and the fact that it is not being dealt with is pushing brothers and sisters away from these gatherings.  So what does scripture say we are to do about troublemakers inside of the church?

 

I Corinthians 5:⁹ I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— ¹⁰ not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. ¹¹ But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

¹² What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? ¹³ God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

 

How often does this happen?  In all my years of attending church, I have never seen it.  What ends up happening is, the person who is being attacked leaves, typically without anyone even bothering to come and talk to them about whatever accusation has been made.  If the church will not deal with troublemakers from within, what are people to do but leave?  I left the church I was raised in because of gossips and troublemakers, as did so many of the families who had so long been part of the congregation there.  My dad was a deacon, he left the church as well.  So we are not talking about casual members that this is confined to, this is a real problem in the church today.

[rjp34652]

Judas:

Which of Jesus' churches authority should I accept?

The Baptist authority?

The Calvary Chapel authority?

The Methodist, The Popes? Church of Christ? Church of God? Assembly of God? Vineyard?

 

Are you a free man or are you not?

 

Do not be yolked unto bondage to the will of another.  This means church.

 

Free men join together in common agreement, not a contract and not a submission to authority for therein is the root of slavery and mindless deception.

 

In no other part of life are men so free.   No government requires us to 'church'.  No law says to do so.   No tax law requires tithing, quite the contrary the NT does not mention it at all.  No custom or social pressure requires any of us to attend church or to submit to the authority of a man (or woman) who does not work for a living.

 

Why then are we being asked or required to submit to the authority of someone who has not the right of governorship?  

 

Is it not the shepherd who is required by God to lead and nurture and inspire?  Yet how many fail in doing that?  

Instead these false shepherds are in it for business sake, to chain men into paying religious taxes and performing duties none of which is of direct benefit to themselves.

 

If all the money and time I ever gave to a church was likened to a business investment, I would be forced to admit it had been a bad one.   I have never reaped a penny in profit or advantage or what is more important -satisfaction- from any of it.   In has all been a hollow exercise in my eyes.   Hollow and pointless and repetitious and thin and boring.

 

Where is the leadership?  THAT is what God requires, yet we see little or none of it at all.   In the end it is all about money and profiteering at the expense of gullible sheep.

 

Does not the Bible say that salvation is free?  Why then as soon as one becomes a 'member' of a church is one told he or she owes a religious tax for the rest of their earthly life (and then some if a portion of the Last Will and Testament is considered).

 

Church has become a modern franchise, a business of pandering of empty philosophy......a gathering of people who have either forgotten or never been told of the POWER of true religion.    All we see is a tissue of habit - nothing real or of substance at all.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[OneLight]

What a very sad testimony of your past and your excitations.
 

Are you a free man or are you not?
 
Do not be yolked unto bondage to the will of another.  This means church.

Not really. It means to the law, or self-righteousness, as we read in Galatians 5:1-6
 

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

 

Free men join together in common agreement, not a contract and not a submission to authority for therein is the root of slavery and mindless deception.

This last statement goes strongly against scripture. There are two sides of authority in scripture, one side of authority is over us and the other side is our authority over others. Is it both sides you balk against or just one, the authority over you?

The authority over us is spoken about clearly in Romans 13:1-7, which states:
 

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

It seems pretty clear that there is authority over us. Yes, this is about the world authority, but how did God set up the Church and in what order? Read 1 Corinthians 12:27-28
 

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

How does Paul look at the authority given him by God? Let's look at 2 Corinthians 1:12-16
 

For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. We, however, will not boast beyond measure, but within the limits of the sphere which God appointed us—a sphere which especially includes you. For we are not overextending ourselves (as though our authority did not extend to you), for it was to you that we came with the gospel of Christ; not boasting of things beyond measure, that is, in other men’s labors, but having hope, that as your faith is increased, we shall be greatly enlarged by you in our sphere, to preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man’s sphere of accomplishment.

Now, what does scripture tell us about those who despise authority? Who are they and what do they do?

2 Peter 2:4-11
 

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

To sum it all up, yes, we are under authority, both in the world and in His body. Are we to blindly follow what anyone tells us? No, we are to use discernment and wisdom. To tell others not to accept being under authority is wrong and against scripture ... be careful what you preach.
 

In no other part of life are men so free.   No government requires us to 'church'.  No law says to do so.   No tax law requires tithing, quite the contrary the NT does not mention it at all.  No custom or social pressure requires any of us to attend church or to submit to the authority of a man (or woman) who does not work for a living.
 
Why then are we being asked or required to submit to the authority of someone who has not the right of governorship?

Jesus Himself was under authority of the Father. If He is under authority, who are we to proclaim that we are not??? God give authority to those whom He chooses. We are free to choose to either follow His instructions in scripture or to not. That is where our freedom is. Again, we use the gifts God gives us to know if someone has His authority or not. Those who reject His instructions will not know one authority from another and will condemn even those whom God has set in authority.  
 

Is it not the shepherd who is required by God to lead and nurture and inspire?  Yet how many fail in doing that?  
Instead these false shepherds are in it for business sake, to chain men into paying religious taxes and performing duties none of which is of direct benefit to themselves.
 
If all the money and time I ever gave to a church was likened to a business investment, I would be forced to admit it had been a bad one.   I have never reaped a penny in profit or advantage or what is more important -satisfaction- from any of it.   In has all been a hollow exercise in my eyes.   Hollow and pointless and repetitious and thin and boring.
 
Where is the leadership?  THAT is what God requires, yet we see little or none of it at all.   In the end it is all about money and profiteering at the expense of gullible sheep.
 
Does not the Bible say that salvation is free?  Why then as soon as one becomes a 'member' of a church is one told he or she owes a religious tax for the rest of their earthly life (and then some if a portion of the Last Will and Testament is considered).
 
Church has become a modern franchise, a business of pandering of empty philosophy......a gathering of people who have either forgotten or never been told of the POWER of true religion.    All we see is a tissue of habit - nothing real or of substance at all.
 
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Well, to be honest, perhaps they should close the choir loft door if this is what you are holler from it. Everything about this post screams self. What did "I" get from this or that? Why should "I" submit to another? Where is "my" freedom? Why do "I" have to obey scripture when "I" disagree with it?

Out of the many posts I have read of yours, this is one of the most off to date.

[rjp34652]

to OneLight:   I'm not going to quote your entire post #137.  Those that wish to review it can see it above.

 

You make many good points, unfortunately your argument breaks down and contradicts itself.   As slogan material its great, but as logic it doesn't work.  Please reexamine your position - for your own sake. 

 

Let me begin by asking if you (or the reader) are a member of the Protestant persuasion.  If so, then you inherit a tradition which contradicts the entire argument of being submissive to religious authorities.  If you (or the reader) are truly and really concerned about submitting to the authority ordained by God, then you must of necessity beat a path quickly and deliberately back to the Roman Catholic Church, which was the original bureaucratic expression of the Christian religion.  Obviously that's not going to happen.  

 

Why not?  

 

Because AS A FREE MAN in Christ you have chosen to adopt a particular fellowship - voluntarily.   It doesn't mean you have denied Christ or allegiance to Him.  Certainly not, but it does mean that you weigh and sift through the religious bureaucracy of Christendom and have decided, or not as the case may be, where to invest your time, your money and your heart.

 

OneLight, you make a grand classic argument for church membership, but bear in mind that's all it is.  It is by no means a blank check for one's intellect, one's spirit, one's pocketbook or one's allegiance.   I'm writing here of human relationships, not that which we owe to God.

 

I do wish to point out a contradiction to your otherwise lucid arguments in #137.   Your summation follows as a short quote:

 

To sum it all up, yes, we are under authority, both in the world and in His body. Are we to blindly follow what anyone tells us? No, we are to use discernment and wisdom. To tell others not to accept being under authority is wrong and against scripture ... be careful what you preach.

 

Your argument went well until you got to this point and then you went off the rails.  Either we are under the authority of the church or we are not.  Your summary begins by saying we ARE under authority and then says we are NOT to blindly follow what anyone tells us?   Which is it?  

 

You say we are to use discernment and wisdom and then write that rejection of authority is "wrong and against scripture".   Do you not see the logical disconnect in your own words and conclusions? 

 

I submit that your scholarship is impressive, but that your summary and conclusions are vague and muddy.  You do well in your research, but you have not thought out your argument to its logical conclusion.  Instead, your text does not follow reason to its proper end.  You begin well in reason and research, but end in a resort to cliche and slogan.  It's a double minded argument.  

 

I think your argument goes off road because YOU ALSO believe, as I do, that a man ought to be free and unencumbered in the pursuit of his responsibility toward God - even if that means opposition to the powers that are assembled above him and around him.  After all, only dead fish swim with the stream.

 

All of this is by means of addressing church attendance as an issue.  It may also be extended toward government allegiance (an issue reserved for another topic/thread), morality as defined by the American consensus of opinion (ok to kill the unborn, perpetual sexual indulgence, human slavery, torture, unbridled military aggression, violence as entertainment and disrespect of God to name a few).   

 

At what point, then, does a FREE man step back and say 'enough'  I will not follow this line?  

 

My point is that if a man does NOT do so, he will find himself in danger of losing his own soul.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft... 

 

PS

 

I feel motivated to review the difference between the CHURCH and Christendom.   THE CHURCH was founded by Jesus Christ.  It is deeply spiritual in its root and motivated in love for its members by its members.  The CHURCH spans the globe as well as many variations of doctrine and groups.

 

But in the 4th century, Roman Emperor Constantine legalized the Christian religion.  In doing so, he caused the birth of a religious bureaucracy that continues to this day.  Where Christians were encouraged by the Bible to "study to show yourself approved", the Bible as well as interpretation of it was removed to the custody of a caste of priests.  Christendom as a legal entity began to own real property, collect religious taxes and require total allegiance of its membership - threatening those who refused allegiance with the fires of eternal hell and temporal exclusion.  Christendom TAKES resources like some spiritual black hole whereas the Bible suggests the followers of Christ GIVE of themselves.   One is of Christ, while the other is of the world.  Are Christians called to submit to the world or to come out of it and be separate from it?  

 

Jesus said no man can serve both.  I think His statement reveals a deep insight into human psychology as well as spiritual truth.

 

Today, Christendom is withering like rotten fruit on the vine while the CHURCH goes on from glory to glory.  

Which is to be emulated and which is to be rejected?  

Let the reader decide if he is able.

[Guest shiloh357]

Where, in Onelight's comments, do you read anything about blindly following others??? 

[enoob57]

Is church solely about edification for ourselves? Isnt it also about worshiping Him?

In pure form of Spirit it is undistinguishable... Love, Steven