ARE WE RIGHTEOUS?

[xyluz]

The problem Joshua is that you are saying things that the Bible doesn't say.  The Bible doesn't say we are righteous, not one place.  You are not disagreeing with me.  You are disagreeing with Scripture and you are adding to God's word in the process. 

2 Corinthians 5:21 

[Guest shiloh357]

II Corinthians 5:21 is speaking of what we will become, not what we are.   It says that Jesus was made to be a sin offering that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.   It is not saying we are righteous at this time.   Paul clearly states in Romans 4 that righteousness is imputed to us for a future time on the basis of our faith.

[xyluz]

II Corinthians 5:21 is speaking of what we will become, not what we are.   It says that Jesus was made to be a sin offering that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.   It is not saying we are righteous at this time.   Paul clearly states in Romans 4 that righteousness is imputed to us for a future time on the basis of our faith.

 

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come! 

 

2Co 5:18  But all things are from God, Who through Jesus Christ reconciled us to Himself [received us into favor, brought us into harmony with Himself] and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation [that by word and deed we might aim to bring others into harmony with Him]. 

 

2Co 5:19  It was God [personally present] in Christ, reconciling and restoring the world to favor with Himself, not counting up and holding against [men] their trespasses [but cancelling them], and committing to us the message of reconciliation (of the restoration to favor). 

 

2Co 5:20  So we are Christ's ambassadors, God making His appeal as it were through us. We [as Christ's personal representatives] beg you for His sake to lay hold of the divine favor [now offered you] and be reconciled to God. 

 

Read through please, its a NOW thing, not a future thing...

 

2Co 5:21  For our sake He made Christ [virtually] to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in and through Him we might become [endued with, viewed as being in, and examples of] the righteousness of God [what we ought to be, approved and acceptable and in right relationship with Him, by His goodness]. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by xyluz

[Guest shiloh357]

That doesn't contradict anything I said.   Rom. 5:21 is simply stating God's purpose in the ministry of Christ on the cross. He is not saying we are righteous at this moment in time.   That would contradict what he said in Rom. 4:23-25.   In Rom. 4 Paul states that just as righteousness was credited to Abraham on the basis of faith, it is credited to us as well.  That means that we are legally and declaratively righteous.  But we are not inherently or intrinsically righteous.   God has only made a legal declaration up to this point.   His purpose has not yet been fully accomplished but is set to be finished at a point in our future at the time when we receive the fullness of our inheritance.

[Guest]

My Opinion....

 

Yes, we're not perfect, and yes we have no righteousness of our own....

 

but if after the death of our lord, and after we accept him as Lord and Savior we still remain sinners....

 

what then is the point of His death....

 

 

Amen~!

 

If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth.

 

But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

 

If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts. 1 John 1:8-10 (New Living Translation)

 

And The Point Is

 

Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law.

 

It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

 

After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles?

 

Of course he is.

 

There is only one God,

 

and he makes people right with himself only by faith,

 

whether they are Jews or Gentiles.

 

Well then, if we emphasize faith,

 

does this mean that we can forget about the law?

 

Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith

 

do we truly fulfill the law. Romans 3:27-31 (New Living Translation)

 

Only The LORD Jesus Saves

 

for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time.

 

God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just,

 

and he declares sinners to be right in his sight

 

when they believe in Jesus. Romans 3:26 (New Living Translation)

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5 (English Standard Version)

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[xyluz]

That doesn't contradict anything I said.   Rom. 5:21 is simply stating God's purpose in the ministry of Christ on the cross. He is not saying we are righteous at this moment in time.   That would contradict what he said in Rom. 4:23-25.   In Rom. 4 Paul states that just as righteousness was credited to Abraham on the basis of faith, it is credited to us as well.  That means that we are legally and declaratively righteous.  But we are not inherently or intrinsically righteous.   God has only made a legal declaration up to this point.   His purpose has not yet been fully accomplished but is set to be finished at a point in our future at the time when we receive the fullness of our inheritance.

 

If God says i am, then i am... i understand your point though, thanks so much... things are clearer to an extent now. thanks again.

Edited February 6, 2015 by xyluz

[xyluz]

 

My Opinion....

 

Yes, we're not perfect, and yes we have no righteousness of our own....

 

but if after the death of our lord, and after we accept him as Lord and Savior we still remain sinners....

 

what then is the point of His death....

 

 

Amen~!

 

If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth.

 

But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

 

If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts. 1 John 1:8-10 (New Living Translation)

 

And The Point Is

 

Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law.

 

It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

 

After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles?

 

Of course he is.

 

There is only one God,

 

and he makes people right with himself only by faith,

 

whether they are Jews or Gentiles.

 

Well then, if we emphasize faith,

 

does this mean that we can forget about the law?

 

Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith

 

do we truly fulfill the law. Romans 3:27-31 (New Living Translation)

 

Only The LORD Jesus Saves

 

for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time.

 

God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just,

 

and he declares sinners to be right in his sight

 

when they believe in Jesus. Romans 3:26 (New Living Translation)

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5 (English Standard Version)

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

 

 

thanks so much. God bless you more.

[Guest shiloh357]

I think people need to understand the difference between legal, declarative righteousness and imparted righteousness.

[Riverwalker]

We should never forget the past, but we should not live in it

 

We once were lost, but now are found, were blind but now we see.

 

Amazing Grace brought us Jesus Christ and HIS righteousness, that we can wear.   Our own righteousness are as filthy rags

 

Matthew 6:

³³ But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

 

Its all about who you know.....and who you bow down to

 

Romans 3:

⁹ What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

¹⁰ As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
¹¹ There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
¹² They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
 

------

 

¹⁹ Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. ²⁰ Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith

²¹ But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, ²² even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ²⁴ being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, ²⁵ whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, ²⁶ to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

Its always HIS righteousness that we wear

Edited February 6, 2015 by Riverwalker

[OneLight]

Why is it that because Jesus died for our sins, forgave those who repented, and created in us a new creation, that this has to mean we became perfect?  I have never understood this theology when scripture tells us that our flesh and the Spirit are in constant battle. Galatians 5 opens as Paul discusses the false teaching those in Galatia heard, causing some to question if they needed to be circumcised, living according to the law and not the Spirit. Paul then goes on talking about how we should walk in Love, which is the greatest of all. Paul ends speaking about walking in the Spirit, living for Him, which is in contradiction to living in the flesh. We read:

Galatians 5:16-26
 

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

If we have been made completely sinless, so never to sin again, why even mention this to those who are following Christ? Some will argue that verse 24 makes this claim when it says "And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.", an they are partly correct. We do stop living in the flesh, allowing the old man to die so the new man can live in the Spirit, bearing the fruit. Yet, you need to notice that the flesh never died. We turned away from the desires of the flesh, but those words are symbolic of a turning away, not a literal meaning, otherwise, we would not still be alive. We have the rest of our lives to battle against the old man, continuing to walk in His will. We have not yet finished the race, won the victory. That is to come, a goal we all desire to reach.  This is seen in Paul's opening statement about this subject: "I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."  It is a continuing battle where we make choices every day.  Ask yourself what Paul meant when he said "do the things you wish" if sinful desires are not constantly battling against the leading of the Spirit?

To say that we no longer sin is adding to scripture the goal, the desire, and is not literally in scripture. Throughout scripture, we are told to build upon what we have learned, to continue the race, to seek the prize, to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It never tells us that our fleshly desires will automatically disappear, never to bother us again. I wish this was so, for I battle with the flesh every day, but my faith in Him allows me to be victorious through each trial, tribulation and temptation. We have to also consider the words of Jesus when He spoke of adultery. Jesus said that it is not just the act that is sinful, but the thought. If we look at another woman in lust, we sin.

How do we continue to put to death the old man? By living as He directs in the Spirit. We put on the Whole Armor of God and fight the good fight. Salvation is of Christ, a free gift, and not of ourselves, but what we do need to do is to continue to walk within His will, to do His work that has been prepared for us. We are not promised a life free of sin. It is a continuing walk in the Spirit that will bring that result.

I have never met one Christian that does not battle with the flesh and I never will in this life. Many have claimed to have no sin, but that is just empty words falling to the ground and not reality. Reality is recognizing sin and turning away, rejecting sin as much as we can, meaning that when we recognize the sin, we repent.

I know this will ruffle some feathers, but so be it. That is what I read when I take into consideration all scripture and not ignore the hard parts of the Truth in His words.
 
As for what is stated in the scripture below, notice Paul is speaking of forgiveness and salvation, a new beginning in Christ.  He is not speaking about the rest of our lives, about the trials, tribulations and temptations we encounter.   In verse 15, Paul uses the word "should" when speaking about living for Christ, understanding there is a chance some may not.
 
Paul then continues stating that we should no longer consider any believer according to the flesh, as dead in Christ, but according to the new creation.  Our sins have been forgiven.  We now have a new life in Him.  These words are about the transfiguration that took place when we accepted Christ as our Savior, not how the rest of our life will be.  There is no promise in these words that we will not sin again.  However, that should be our goal, to be like Christ, yet, Christ is the only perfect person ever. 
 
2 Corinthians 5:12-21

For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Please, don't get tripped up due to seeing the goal as if it has passed. While we are still on this earth, living in the flesh, the flesh will always be at battle with the Spirit. Learn to live in accordance to scripture, following the guidance we all seek from the Holy Spirit, and the closer we walk with Him, the easier it will become to turn away from the flesh. Be at peace with each other and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Shalom,
Alan