Question about Jesus Christ

[Seeking1]

I have wondered how Jesus could even be the saviour of men if the fleshly body He inhabited had no sin nature whatsoever. How could He feel our infirmities or even be tempted as men are tempted, if not? I know most Christians say no to my idea of Jesus having any flesh with a sin nature during His incarnation, but I am actually skeptical of Jesus having inhabited a fleshly body that was completely free of sin. I feel like it actually violates "1 John 4:1-3." If so, how could His flesh be fully after the nature of Abraham or mankind in general? If it was made sinless, how did Jesus in fact die for our sins then? 

 

Some Christians charge Roman Catholics as being in violation of "1 John 4:1-3" due to their teaching of the "immaculate conception" (sinless nature) of the virgin Mary, but how is the assertion that Jesus had no fleshly sin nature much different from this false doctrine? Some Christians have asked, "If Mary had no sin nature, then how can Jesus be the savior of men at all?" If Jesus had no sin nature even while assuming that Mary did, how is this not the exact same problem where the atonement is concerned? In both cases, Jesus is still without a fleshly body that has the problem of a sin nature from Adam. 

 

If Jesus cleansed the sin nature while still in the womb of Mary, then how could He have died for our sins 33 years later on the cross since the sinful flesh nature had already been eliminated? So, the cross seems unnecessary then for the elimination of sin, since Jesus may have already done it while in the womb at the moment of conception. By this reasoning, therefore, when He died, He did not die in a sinful body like that of the rest of the human race. Do you get why I am having a problem here? 

 

I know Gnosticism is definitely a heresy. I do not believe it. As I have understood it, the Gnostics believed Jesus could not have possibly inhabited a body of flesh since He would have been tainted by its sin nature and forced into sin. I disagree. 

 

I think Jesus could have had flesh with a sin nature but perfectly overcame the temptation to sin due to His divine nature, which man does not have. His Divine nature could have been used to override the genuine temptation of the sinful, fleshly nature every single time. Hence, in the sense of perfectly avoiding sinning via His Divine nature, He could still be said to be "free of sin" and having "no sin within Him (His heart/mind)" even while being sincerely tempted by the flesh itself. Most Christians say that temptation itself is not a sin but rather giving into it. I, of course, believe that the Bible clearly teaches Jesus never gave into any kind of temptation for it to yield any kind of actual sin.

 

I have read a man online making the argument that if Jesus could have ever genuinely had the ability and/or choice to sin from His human nature (not from His Divine, as is evident from Titus 1:2 KJV), He could not be the trustworthy God of Scripture. Again, I disagree. He tried to argue that Christ only felt our infirmities in things like being hungry, tired, etc., which are weaknesses from having a natural body rather than from feeling any temptation to actually sin at all. 

 

I think this sounds lame and makes the proclamation "He was tempted in ALL ways as we are" a misleading statement at best and an outright lie at worst. Everyone knows being tempted to actually do something sinful is part of human nature and has plagued mankind since forever, and it is a real and ever-present infirmity, even for the Christian. If Christ lacked this, He did NOT experience temptation as mankind experiences it on a moment-by-moment basis, even in our very thoughts. 

 

So, for all practical purposes, the above proclamation is rendered worthless to me if this is true. If true, Jesus then cannot really relate to mankind's struggle in the way He has claimed. I find the man's apologetic for Jesus lacking a fleshly sin nature questionable for that very reason. Does anyone have any other ideas/thoughts? Or a better argument than this man? Thanks!

 

 

[Willa]

We are told that He was tempted in all ways as we are, yet without sin. He obviously had free will to disobey His Father God, but chose not to. Otherwise He would have not has such a struggle in the Garden of Gesthemine when He prayed 'Nevertheless, not My will be done but Thine". It was not easy for Him to choose to go the the cross.

[Guest shiloh357]

The premise that Jesus had to have a sin nature in order to feel the "tug" of temptation as we do, is a false premise.   Jesus had a human nature, albeit a sinless human nature. It is not a sin to be tempted, so there is no reason to believe that Jesus didn't feel temptation the same way we do.

 

Jesus didn't deal with temptation in His divinity, but in His humanity.  He modeled for us how to overcome temptation through the power of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. 

 

It is precisely the fact that Jesus was sinless that qualifies him to be our Savior.  If being sinless, as you imply in your opening sentence, is a disqualifier for being our sacrifice for sin, who would qualify?

 

Our sacrifice HAD to be sinless. If you look at the types and shadows in the OT sacrificial system, the sacrificial animal had to be spotless and without blemish.  It had to be the best of the best.  It typifies the nature of Jesus' sinless offering of Himself on the cross.

 

If someone had to have a sin nature then Abraham or Moses or one of the prophets could have died for us.  But it was God in human flesh who died for us.

[OakWood]

Jesus had to have a fleshly body otherwise he could not be tempted. He was sinless because he never once succumbed to any of these temptations, something that no mortal man has ever done. We are simply not strong enough to live our entire lives free of sin. We are imperfect. We became corrupted after the fall.

Jesus was perfect, therefore he was the most unblemished sacrifice possible. Not even an unblemished animal or a new-born baby or a young virgin girl could top that. Satan lost that particular battle. Jesus' sacrifice trumped all sacrifices before and any sacrifice that could ever be made after that. In fact, his sacrifice his simply unbeatable and likewise is so enormous that his blood covers all sins ever done and that could possibly be done, provided of course we accept Jesus to cover our sins.

Without a fleshly body there would be no blood, no death of the Earthly body and hence no sacrifice and thus no salvation.

[john14:6]

You have received very good answers from forum members. I want to add my thoughts to your questions about Jesus.

I don't understand everything about God and Jesus, but I can truly say that many years ago the Holy Spirit convinced me that the bible is true, that God is real, and that God the Son stepped out of heaven and came to earth to become a man. His name was/is Jesus and He came for the purpose of dying on the cross & shedding His innocent blood there to pay the penalty for our sin. Since He was/is God He cannot sin, therefore He was the only person who has ever lived, or who shall ever live, who could make atonement for the sin of all mankind.

The truth of the matter is in the Bible, God's Word, and I know from my own experience of struggling with doubts about God that God will show you the answers to your questions if you will earnestly search scripture to find those answers. I found the answers to my doubts in the Gospel of John. The book of Romans is another good place to find the truth about God's Plan of salvation. If you mean business with God when you study His Word He will not disappoint you; He will show you the truth about Himself.

Titus 2:13-14: “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

Edited February 10, 2015 by john14:6

[Tinky]

If Jesus could have sinned, he would still be able to sin. God cannot sin. 

 

But like Shiloh said, 

 

 

 

 It is not a sin to be tempted, so there is no reason to believe that Jesus didn't feel temptation the same way we do.

[Kan]

The terms we use in this discussion may vary in meaning from one person to the next, which may sound like we have different ideas. I'm not saying that we all agree on the same things, but that we also agree on some points, even though we use different words.

 

Some people think that having sinful flesh is somehow a guilt thing or inherently sinful. They argue that not being able to run as fast as sinless Adam is a sin.

If that is the case, then Jesus was sinful, because He was about 2 meters shorter than Adam, and certainly could not run as fast, unless He used divine power.

 

The flesh that Jesus came in was the same as ours, not the same as unfallen Adam. 

 

It is not a sin to be disadvantaged, but a sin to use that as an excuse to disobey God.

 

If Jesus came in sinless flesh, it would be no wonder that He never sinned, but the fact that He as us, His story is one to bow to.

 

Was He tempted as us on every level? yes, and I might add to the extreme. Did He have a propensity to sin, in other words, did He have temptations due to sinning in the first place? No. He had no developed tendencies to sin, due to any previous sin, because He had no sin.

Was He born with the weaknesses of His ancestors? yes. Was He prone to give up, to be overwhelmed, to be too tired, and daunted by the future and circumstances? Yes. Was He tempted to take the easy road? yes. 

What was His reaction in every case? Run to the Father for help, to look up. He learned through suffering to be strong and never be discouraged. He was beautiful in character and spirit. A balanced, passionate and loving person. Cheerful and brave, and always touched with the feeling of our weaknesses.

 

So what happens to the person who is caught up in sin and its consequences of a fallen nature?

The temptations of Christ were strong because of the contrast of His pure nature. It was torture to be faced with His own weakened humanity, which seemed to hold every good value down, and waste His energies. He knows all too well the dominance of weakness and failure in the human race. He felt it very intensely, and because He did not yield to it, Satan doubled his efforts.

 

Our Savior knows exactly how we feel and much more. He is very passionate that we overcome by the same Spirit that he conquered.

[Guest shiloh357]

Kan,  From where do you derive the notion that Jesus was two meters shorter than Adam???

 

Jesus' humanity was not like ours.  Jesus' humanity was what God created humanity to be, originally.  Jesus came in sinless flesh.

[Littlelambseativy]

Jesus though human in body was still God of very God. He felt knew temptation by Satan, grief over Joseph and Lazaras' death, He felt anger at the money changers in His Father's temple, He knew what it was like to be adored by woman, and He knew fear in the Garden of Gethsemane when He asked the Father to keep Him from going having all of mankind's sin ..past and future placed upon Him. Yet in every case He overcame by the strength of God the Father....not My will but Thine be done. He knew the mission and did not let the flesh of His humanity have control. Just as we, who are saved have His strength to overcome all temptation.....not on our own but through Jesus.

In transubstantiation, the bread and 'wine' do not become the body and blood of Jesus or WE crucify Him every time we partake of communion. Jesus took bread and wine and said do this as a SYMBOL of His body that was beaten and wine that was shed for the remission of our sin.

[Ezra]

I think Jesus could have had flesh with a sin nature but perfectly overcame the temptation to sin due to His divine nature, which man does not have. His Divine nature could have been used to override the genuine temptation of the sinful, fleshly nature every single time.

 

It is usually "I think" which gets us into trouble.  For a Christian, it does not matter what "I think".  All that matters is what God says.  And there are certain "mysteries" in Scripture which are beyond our limited human minds.

 

So let's look at Hebrews 4:15:

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

What is this verse teaching us?

1. The Lord Jesus Christ is our Great High Priest

2. The Man Christ Jesus understands our humanity because He was fully human.

3. Christ as the God-Man was "tempted" just like all other human beings

4. Christ [a] had no sin within Himself, He did not ever sin, and [c] He could not ever sin.

 

So your issue is "How could Jesus be "tempted" if He -- being fully God and fully Man -- could not respond to temptation? " Well there are two sides to temptation: (1) the external inducement to sin and (2) the internal desire to sin.  Satan presented Jesus with many external inducements to sin (see Matthew 4) but there was no internal desire to sin within Christ because HE HAD NO SIN NATURE (being virgin-born). 

 

This is essentially a mystery to be accepted by faith.  Christianity is basically supernatural, and if you are unable to accept that, you cannot accept anything in Scripture.  That God walked this earth as a Man is an amazing fact.

 

When Peter tried to dissuade Christ from going to the cross, that was Satan speaking through Peter. Therefore Peter was soundly rebuked. Every day while Christ was on earth He was mocked and scorned and ridiculed and challenged.  Those were temptations to respond in a sinful manner, but He did not do so.  Therefore He could challenge his enemies and ask them point-blank "Which of you accuses me of sin?" and they had no answer.