the bride of Christ

[saved34]

I still believe by difinition that both "covenant" and "testament" are the same thing.

They both come from the same Greek word.

They are. I really respect Marilyn and the knowledge that she has, but she is making this unnecessarily difficult. The New Testament is simply the new (and better)way in which  God is dealing with mankind. The Old Testament or covenant was a mere shadow or type of the reality that is found in the New. The Old was cleansed and purged by the blood of animals, and had an earthly priesthood, where as the New has the great High Priest who gave himself, our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ gave his own body and blood to open up the way into the true Holy Place, heaven itself, not an earthly Tabernacle. 

 

What Marilyn has done is shown the many places where God dealt with individuals under different conditions or mini covenants if you will. She is severely mistaken in trying to distinguish between the New Testament and the New covenant which is one and the same. In talking about the New Covenant in which God will no longer enforce rules  on stone, but he will write his rules(in a way) on our hearts, and that is accomplished by each and every believer possessing the Holy Spirit. We are all partakers of Christ's very divine nature. 

 

Heb 10:14  For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. 

Heb 10:15  The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 

Heb 10:16  "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." 

Heb 10:17  Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." 

 

 

 

2Co 3:3  You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 

[Openly Curious]

Where in the scriptures Marilyn do you find where God the Father made a "covenant" with his Son Jesus Christ. You said a lot of things but failed to give the scriptural references that these claims were based upon.

Why would God even need to make a covenant with Himself? If one party can break a covenant as you've stated what is to prevent the Father or the Son from breaking the covenant?

You give an opinion that God couldn't break a covenant because He is God but you gave "no" scripture to back that claim up either.

You said you went back and looked into this more deeply which I took to mean you went back and sought answer from the bible so it would seem like you would have plenty of scrpture to back up what you have said. All you have done thus far is give opinions not sound doctrine.

[Openly Curious]

We are all partakers of Christ's very divine nature. 

 

Heb 10:14  For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. 

Heb 10:15  The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 

Heb 10:16  "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." 

Heb 10:17  Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." 

 

 

2Co 3:3  You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 

And there we have it

if any man be IN Christ he is a new creature - the old has passed and the new has come.

[Ezra]

"Messiah" simply means, "anointed one", and pertains to Jesus reign on the throne of David in Israel.  "Messiah" doesn't mean "savior" and it isn't redemptive term.  It is far more poltical.

That is simply not the case.  This idea of the Messiah being simply or primarily political, and not primarily Divine, has no foundation whatsoever, since the Jews knew what their Scriptures had prophesied regarding Christ.

 

Christ is specifically called "Messiah the Prince" in Dan 9:25 which speaks of King-Messiah. Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon says Messianic prince, עַדמָֿשִׁיחַ נָגִיד Daniel 9:25.   Nowhere in the OT will you find simply a political connotation for Messiah.  Indeed Messiah brings salvation and justice with Him, and the King shall be worshipped.  Notice carefully what Zechariah reveals about King-Messiah:

 

Zech 9:9-11

 

KINGSHIP, JUSTICE AND SALVATION FOR ISRAEL

⁹ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

 

SALVATION FOR THE HEATHEN, DOMINION OVER THE EARTH

^10... and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

 

HIS BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT -- SALVATION

¹¹ As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

 

Zech 14:9,16

 

MESSIAH IS YAHWEH TO BE WORSHIPPED

⁹And the LORD [YHWH] shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

¹⁶And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

The Jews had all these prophecies, including the prophecy of the Son of Man who would have an everlasting Kingdom (Dan 7:13,14) and would come in the clouds of Heaven.  When Christ revealed Himself to be the very same Son of Man, the High Priest accused Him of blasphemy and condemned Him to death (Mt 26:62-66).  The question which the High Priest asked applied to both His Messiahship and well as His Deity -- "tell us whether thou be the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of God" ("Son on Man" was equal to "Son of God" for the Jews).

[Ezra]

The terms `covenant` & `testament` have two different meanings.

 

Not so, as applied to the Old and New Covenants/Testaments. Those words are interchangeable.  Note carefully (Heb 8:8-9:15):

⁸For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:..

¹⁰For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

¹¹And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

¹²For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

¹³In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

¹Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary...

¹⁰Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

¹¹But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

¹²Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

¹³For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

¹⁴How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

¹⁵And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 

How is it possible that Christians can be confused about this very fundamental doctrine?  The Old Covenant was ratified with the blood of animals, thus becoming the First Testament. The New Covenant was ratified with the blood of Christ, thus becoming the New Testament (Mt 26:28).

[Marilyn C]

Hi Openly Curious, Saved34 & Ezra,

 

Now you can all breathe a sigh of relief because, of course I believe all you have said concerning the `old & new` covenants. I, however was talking of something different. Give me time & I will explain.

 

Marilyn. 

[Openly Curious]

Hi Openly Curious, Saved34 & Ezra,

 

Now you can all breathe a sigh of relief because, of course I believe all you have said concerning the `old & new` covenants. I, however was talking of something different. Give me time & I will explain.

 

Marilyn.

If you have agreed and believed "all" that I have said concerning a testament and covenant being the same thing by difinition then what have you been disagreeing with me about ?  

[Guest shiloh357]

Sorry Ezra, but you don't understand the concept of Messiah very well.   The word Messiah is never connected to Jesus being a Savior.  The verses you present about salvation are speaking of a corporate salvation for Israel/Jerusalem.  

 

Christians think of salvation mostly in individual/person terms.  But the salvation of the Messiah is corporate and really is about corporate deliverance, not personal salvation from sin.    Jesus is a personal savior, but the salvation He brings as a Savior and the salvation he brings to Israel as the Messiah are two completely different things.

 

As Messiah, Jesus is a king and that is a political role that speaks to a unique relationship He has with Israel.

[Guest Butero]

Sorry Ezra, but you don't understand the concept of Messiah very well.   The word Messiah is never connected to Jesus being a Savior.  The verses you present about salvation are speaking of a corporate salvation for Israel/Jerusalem.  

 

Christians think of salvation mostly in individual/person terms.  But the salvation of the Messiah is corporate and really is about corporate deliverance, not personal salvation from sin.    Jesus is a personal savior, but the salvation He brings as a Savior and the salvation he brings to Israel as the Messiah are two completely different things.

 

As Messiah, Jesus is a king and that is a political role that speaks to a unique relationship He has with Israel.

Jesus' reign as king won't be limited to just the small section of the planet that makes up the land of Israel.  He will set up his throne in that location, but all nations on the earth will be subject to him.  In that sense, he will be not only king over Israel, but over the entire planet, even though other nations will have their own governments.  It will be like when Rome dominated so much of the earth.  Other nations existed, but they paid taxes to Rome and were limited in what they could do. 

 

Here is the only difference I think I have with what you are teaching.  I fully agree that the land of Israel will be fully restored to the Jewish people.  I fully agree that Jesus will sit on a throne in the land of Israel.  I fully agree that the Jews will inhabit the land known as Israel.  I just disagree on who the Jews are.  I believe that the Jews are certainly those who trace their blood line to Isaac, but not everyone that can do that is a Jew in the sight of God.  Those who rejected Christ are cut off, and their ancestry no longer benefits them.  I believe that gentiles that accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior become part of the Jewish nation, so when the Bible speaks of who shall inherit the land of Israel, it is speaking of those God considers Jews, not those who claim to be Abraham's seed through his son Isaac.  It is one nation made up of believers who can trace their roots back to Isaac, and believers who cannot.  They are Israel.  In 1948, God began restoring the nation of Israel, by bringing those who are ancestors of Isaac to the land.  The fingerprints of God are all over that nation, and he loves and protects it.  He curses those nations that curse Israel, and blesses those nations that bless Israel.  At the same time, the people that will ultimately inherit the land will be spiritual Israel, which includes gentile Christians that have been graffed into the same good olive tree as Jewish Christians.  All unbelievers both Jew and gentile will be left out.  There is only one body, not two. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Well  Butero,   YOUR definition of who a Jew is the Bible's definition  of who a Jews are not the same.   The Bible  NEVER says that getting saved makes one a Jew.   In fact, if becoming a Jew is the result of salvation, it completely defies the biblical teaching of "one new man."   "One new man"  is Jew and Gentile being one in Christ.   If getting saved makes a Gentile Jew, then "one new man" is pointless.

 

The beauty of the Gospel is that Gentiles are able to enter the Kingdom of God as Gentiles.   Being "Jewish" is not a redemptive state of being.   If it were, it would mean that being a Gentile is inherently unclean and substandard to being Jewish.

 

You are NOT a Jew just because you are saved.   You can believe you are but that is just wishful thinking and bad theology.