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George

Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

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Something which is easily forgotten is that the seven trumpets of Revelation are heralding extremely severe JUDGMENTS.  On the other hand "the trump of God" (also called "the last trump") is heralding ultimate SALVATION -- the perfection and glorification of the saints.  Therefore there is no way that they can be placed together or mistaken for each other.

Good point.  :thumbsup:

 

 

No, it is not.  What is often tragedy for one, is a blessing for another.  Humans think in liner means.  God can do as He pleases with what He wants.

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This is the last trump:

 

Rev:11:15

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

 If you look at the text, it says that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, this is the moment of the Rapture, but should be biblically called the Resurrection, at the last day.  The church has strayed from or fallen away from this understanding of the Resurrection.  If you look at the sequences of events before this chapter and verse, the manchild, which is the chosen two witnesses, the group that will go out in power showing great signs and wonders in the name of the Lord, many will be martyred and will be caught up to the throne, as is written in

 

 Rev 11:7-12

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

 

The portion of scripture in bold is where the manchild is caught up to heaven.  This is the Resurrection (Rapture of the living) and then the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead, this will be the First and more Blessed Resurrection where these who take part in the First Resurrection will be the Saints to Rule and Reign with Christ for the 1,000 years.  This reign is described in the first scripture I posted where The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  AMEN!!

 

 

You are making the same mistake many do, assigning something to scripture that is not there.  Yes, the two witnesses are "raptured" back to God, but trying to say that will join them is adding to scripture, unless you believe that the church are the two witnesses.  Do you?

 

yes, I do believe that the church, the bride of Christ who are chosen and in Christ; the ones alive at this time are called the two witnesses, this will take place during great tribulation that has never been before or ever will be as Jesus says in Matt 24

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This is the last trump:

 

Rev:11:15

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

 If you look at the text, it says that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, this is the moment of the Rapture, but should be biblically called the Resurrection, at the last day.  The church has strayed from or fallen away from this understanding of the Resurrection.  If you look at the sequences of events before this chapter and verse, the manchild, which is the chosen two witnesses, the group that will go out in power showing great signs and wonders in the name of the Lord, many will be martyred and will be caught up to the throne, as is written in

 

 Rev 11:7-12

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

 

The portion of scripture in bold is where the manchild is caught up to heaven.  This is the Resurrection (Rapture of the living) and then the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead, this will be the First and more Blessed Resurrection where these who take part in the First Resurrection will be the Saints to Rule and Reign with Christ for the 1,000 years.  This reign is described in the first scripture I posted where The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  AMEN!!

 

 

You are making the same mistake many do, assigning something to scripture that is not there.  Yes, the two witnesses are "raptured" back to God, but trying to say that will join them is adding to scripture, unless you believe that the church are the two witnesses.  Do you?

 

yes, I do believe that the church, the bride of Christ who are chosen and in Christ; the ones alive at this time are called the two witnesses, this will take place during great tribulation that has never been before or ever will be as Jesus says in Matt 24

 

 

I do not see that in Revelation 11 where scripture describes the two witnesses.

 

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

How would all the believers fit into Jerusalem? How can millions of believers, lying dead, be able to be seen by everyone as the stench of their dead bodies fills the air. Sorry, but your theology is incorrect about this.

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God can do as He pleases with what He wants.

Very true.  Neither is He the God of confusion. 

 

Before the Flood He placed Noah, his family, and all the creatures into the Ark.  Before destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, He caused Lot and his family to be removed from Sodom by angels. Before the seven final trumpet judgments denoting WRATH on earth, He will take His Church directly to Heaven in ultimate salvation, resurrection, transformation, glorification and perfection.  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:9).

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God can do as He pleases with what He wants.

Very true.  Neither is He the God of confusion. 

 

Before the Flood He placed Noah, his family, and all the creatures into the Ark.  Before destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, He caused Lot and his family to be removed from Sodom by angels. Before the seven final trumpet judgments denoting WRATH on earth, He will take His Church directly to Heaven in ultimate salvation, resurrection, transformation, glorification and perfection.  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess 5:9).

 

What you say is mostly true, but your timing is off.  Gods wrath does not begin until after the 7th Trumpet, for after the trumpet sounds, these words are spoken:

 

Revelation 11:15-19

 

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,

The One who is and who was and who is to come,

Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.

The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,

And those who fear Your name, small and great,

And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

You do realize that God brought them through the wrath and did not take them off the earth to escape the hard times.

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Hello saints,

 

As I was going over this forum, it occurred to me that there's another position that isn't listed -- the "Pre-Wrath" position which is closely associated with the Mid-Tribulation position with a few nuances.

 

If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position.

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

We are before the rapture which happens during the sixth seal in Revelation 6, and Matthew 24 when the fig tree buds (which is the abomination which causes desolation sitting in the place where he should not sit right before Jesus comes for us and the elect are gathered together "from the four winds of Heaven)".  The cosmic signs are the same in both chapters, match them up together. This is the key that unlocked my understanding, several prophecy students will be very blessed when they get this...

 

I have something else to share after you study this.  

 

In Christ, Mike

Edited by Hisvoiceinme

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Hello saints,

 

As I was going over this forum, it occurred to me that there's another position that isn't listed -- the "Pre-Wrath" position which is closely associated with the Mid-Tribulation position with a few nuances.

 

If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position.

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

We are before the rapture which happens during the sixth seal in Revelation 6, and Matthew 24 when the fig tree buds (which is the abomination which causes desolation sitting in the place where he should not sit right before Jesus comes for us and the elect are gathered together "from the four winds of Heaven)".  The cosmic signs are the same in both chapters, match them up together. This is the key that unlocked my understanding, several prophecy students will be very blessed when they get this...

 

I have something else to share after you study this.  

 

In Christ, Mike

 

 

Hi Mike,

 

I used to be of this persuasion too until one little nuance was pointed out to me.  Matthew 24:30 speaks of two different things.  It speaks of the sign of the Son of Man appearing, and then the Son of Man appearing.

 

And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  Matthew 24:30

 

The part in orange pertains to the sixth seal.  The part in green pertains to the seventh trumpet / bowl on the day of the Lord.

 

The sign of the Son of Man is seen at the sixth seal when the sky is rolled up like a scroll and people catch a glimpse into the spiritual realm, much like Elisha's servant did.  What they see is expressed in what they say.  They see He who sits on the throne and the Lamb, something similar to the throne room scene in Rev 5.

 

The seventh (last) trumpet is when they actually see the Son of Man.  This is the last day when He raises immortal those who belong to Him (resurrection / rapture).

 

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

 

Matthew 24 spells out the signs that His disciples were to look for.  That's the reason that verse 30 goes from the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet.  Those who belong to Christ will not be affected by the seven plague angels (trumpets / bowls).

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Hello saints,

 

As I was going over this forum, it occurred to me that there's another position that isn't listed -- the "Pre-Wrath" position which is closely associated with the Mid-Tribulation position with a few nuances.

 

If you are a post-tribulation / pre-wrath advocate, use this thread to defend your position.

 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

 

George

We are before the rapture which happens during the sixth seal in Revelation 6, and Matthew 24 when the fig tree buds (which is the abomination which causes desolation sitting in the place where he should not sit right before Jesus comes for us and the elect are gathered together "from the four winds of Heaven)".  The cosmic signs are the same in both chapters, match them up together. This is the key that unlocked my understanding, several prophecy students will be very blessed when they get this...

 

I have something else to share after you study this.  

 

In Christ, Mike

 

 

Hi Mike,

 

I used to be of this persuasion too until one little nuance was pointed out to me.  Matthew 24:30 speaks of two different things.  It speaks of the sign of the Son of Man appearing, and then the Son of Man appearing.

 

And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  Matthew 24:30

 

The part in orange pertains to the sixth seal.  The part in green pertains to the seventh trumpet / bowl on the day of the Lord.

 

The sign of the Son of Man is seen at the sixth seal when the sky is rolled up like a scroll and people catch a glimpse into the spiritual realm, much like Elisha's servant did.  What they see is expressed in what they say.  They see He who sits on the throne and the Lamb, something similar to the throne room scene in Rev 5.

 

The seventh (last) trumpet is when they actually see the Son of Man.  This is the last day when He raises immortal those who belong to Him (resurrection / rapture).

 

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

 

Matthew 24 spells out the signs that His disciples were to look for.  That's the reason that verse 30 goes from the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet.  Those who belong to Christ will not be affected by the seven plague angels (trumpets / bowls).

 

 

Hi.  I just lost my response because I'm not used to this keyboard on my new laptop.  The Trumpets for God's house are not the same as the Trumpet plagues for the world (God judges us before the world, 1 Peter 4:17).  The Trumpet to gather us from the four winds of heaven in Matthew 24:13 is the wrath of the lamb for the world in Revelation 6:16.  It isn't the last Trumpet plague for the world.  The 144,000 are sealed after heaven is silent for about half an hour as we, God's elect are being ushered into heaven.  See Revelation 7:1-4 the four winds, the four corners of the earth, is all the same as Matthew 24.  The Trumpet plagues, and bowls are for the world and 144,000...

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We are before the rapture which happens during the sixth seal in Revelation 6...

Congratulations, you are the only one who (almost) mentions where the term pre-wrath originates.

 

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Most of the posters on this string should have their posts erased, because they haven't addressed and agreed with the primary doctrine of Pre-Wrath: that the Rapture takes place "immediately after the tribulation," and the event of the great heavenly and earthly cataclysms, Matt. 24:29 = Rev. 6:12-14 = the 6th Seal. The GT ends, the cataclysms take place, and then Jesus is seen in heaven at the right hand of the Father --

 

Matt. 26:64 ...ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the Power, and coming in the clouds of heaven...

 

...for his elect, Matt. 24:31. The Rapture then takes place, and the Wrath begins. The Rapture is thus post-Trib and pre-Wrath.

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Thank you, God bless you!  Sorry for posting in pre-wrath since I'm obviously pre-trib!!  Before I go to that thread, I would like to point something out.  Look at the tribes of the earth during the time of Christ's return, they're mourning in Matthew 24:30, and the kings of the earth hid themselves from the wrath of Lamb in Revelation 6:15-17. (Remember I believe the sixth seal wrath of the lamb in Revelation 6:12-17, and rapture in Matthew 24 are the same event).  Jesus said "where the carcasses are the eagles will gather in Matthew 24:28, so there's dead bodies everywhere, a horrible earthquake (Revelation 6:12), and all the tribes of the whole earth are ashamed and afraid and some are quite irritated when the Lord returns for us.

 

This is not an out pouring of the Holy Spirit for those who aren't saved yet.  The next event is the sealing of the 144,000 virgins in Revelation 7, I am not so sure there will be any other elect on the earth from that time forward until the Lord returns with His 144,000 on the Mount of Olives.  

Edited by Hisvoiceinme

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