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Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position


George

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59 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:
3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 6:17 ...the great Day of thy Wrath came [aorist verb: simple past tense]...

11:17 ...Your Wrath came [aorist verb: simple past tense]...

WHO says: "for the great day of their wrath has come" BEFORE any of the seven Trumpets sound?
The kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man.

Who says: "and Your wrath came" AFTER the seventh Trumpet sounds?
The 24 Elders.

Now who are you going to trust to convey what is happening with God's Plan?
~ The ones who have taken the mark of the beast and worshiped the talking image, who were told by the third of three Angels (Rev 14:9-11) that they were going to suffer for it,

I am going to trust both of them, because both are accurately reporting what they have experienced.

The Wrath comes after the opening of the 6th Seal, and therefore has already come by the time of the 7th Trumpet. It is still being fulfilled at that time, one event at a time, and that Wrath will not be concluded until the events of the 7th Bowl are fulfilled.

As far as the events of Rev. 14, those also take place during the time of the Wrath, after that time of Wrath began immediately following the cataclysms of the 6th Seal. Those cataclysms come "after the Great Tribulation" (Matt. 24:29), and right after they occur, Jesus comes in the cloud for his elect, and the Wrath begins. John sees those elect in Rev. 7, before any of the 7 Trumpets begin to sound.

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13 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

When do you think the following happens:

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.
The Lord of hosts will defend them.
And they will devour and trample on the sling stones;
And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine;
And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin,
Drenched like the corners of the altar.
And the Lord their God will save them in that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are as the stones of a crown,
Sparkling in His land.  Zechariah 9:14-16

This references a trumpet that God sounds.  Is there one that comes after this one?

Zech. 9:13 For I have bent Judah, My bow,
Fitted the bow with Ephraim,
And raised up your sons, O Zion,
Against your sons, O Greece,
And made you like the sword of a mighty man.”

14 Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning...

The "them" is God's earthly people Israel, not the elect of the Church. This event takes place after the Rapture of those elect ones, during the time of Wrath, when God will redeem the Remnant of his people who remain on earth.

Paul's use of the term "last/eschatos trumpet" is theological/eschatological, not chronological. In Jewish lore, there are to be only two times when God descends to this world to render Judgment: the first at Mount Sinai, and the second at the coming of the Messiah (= our Second Coming). The latter will be the last/eschatos trumpet/shofar of Judgment. He will continue that earthly Judgment throughout the entire period of His Wrath.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

 Is there a scripture in the OT where God sounds a trumpet that fits your scenario, one that could be called the last trumpet? 

I don't have one on the short list of what I study.  Mostly, I look at linear narratives along my sequence-of-events analysis approach.
I do not focus on single words so much.  I am wary of using a simple word search to link Scripture together: context-context-context.
 

10 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

If not, what reference was Paul making with the last trumpet, the trumpet of God?

To that, I had to go to the Jewish Festivals and study them.

The Last Trumpet is blown on Rosh ha-Shannah.  I took his reference to be indicative a "pointing" to an "Appointed Time" (which is what "Festival" means) which also is referred to in Jewish literature and study as "The Returning Anew" ~ I think that is a wonderful term which they unknowingly use which also points to what we await: Jesus' Coming.

The Last Trumpet is one of two shofars made from the Adekah ram used on the previous Yom Kippur sacrifice.
The First Trumpet is blown on the next Festival of First Fruits.
The Last Trumpet is blown on the next Festival of Trumpets.
They are bookends to the growing season.
To me, eschatologically, they are also the bookends to the Church Age.
 

17 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Zechariah 9:14-16
This references a trumpet that God sounds. 

That is a great reference, and not one I have used previously.  I will use it in the future.  Thank-you!

Zechariah has SO MUCH to say about the end times! 
However!  What he says is, like much of Isaiah, NOT in linear narrative form.  

So the problem with using Prophets besides Daniel for me in my study, is that they rarely form long, linear narratives with specific and unique events so as to include them in the formation of my Pre-Wrath eschatology, which again, I base on a blended sequence-of-events so as to form a holistic outline chronicling the end-times.

This approach, mirrored by another Pre-Wrath adherent, Cameron Fultz, in his book: Prophecy's Architecture - does not incorporate all the sundry and various passages in the Prophets besides Daniel.  Daniel's book, however, is part of the basic column and beam structure with which I base my resultant outline.

Isaiah and Zechariah then "flesh out" the framework provided by the book of Revelation, the Olivet Discourse, the book of Daniel, and Paul's letters on eschatology.  I simply cannot put together a holistic timeline of the end-times based on Isaiah and Zechariah and/or other Prophets because their visions are so disjointed.  However, they provide great detailed insight once a basic framework structure is in place.

I like the opening to this particular passage:

Zec 9:11 As for you also, because of the blood of My covenant with you, ~ has SIGNIFICANT implication for US because we wash our robes clean in the Blood of the Lamb.
 

30 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Is there one that comes after this one?

Yes, I think there is.  I look to the Great Trumpet of Isaiah which I peg to the aspect of Yom Kippur when the "Atonement", or as one Jewish author puts it: the "At one moment", when the Lord assembles the Remnant and the Meek who do survive the one 'seven'.

I am not alone in looking at this as the third named Trumpet of God.

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1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

I am going to trust both of them, because both are accurately reporting what they have experienced.

I don't trust the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, who are hiding from the face of Lord because the third Angel tells them He is coming for them - to tell me at that specific point what is actually happening.

They are on the wrong side of God and they "get God wrong!"  (Job 42:7b ...the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has.")  It is important to "get" God right, and the wicked NEVER DO.

So why would you trust them to give an accurate assessment of what part of God's Plan in the end-times is happening at the moment they are in hiding?

I DO TRUST the 24 Elders to accurately relay what has happened at the end of the one 'seven'.

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3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

No.  
The purpose of any particular Trumpet blast is singular.

Jesus blows the Last Trumpet.
An Angel blows the seventh Trumpet.

One is an assembly Trumpet
The other is an announcement Trumpet.

Those are inconvenient facts you don't address!

 

Yes.  It is a single note with a "starting" tone, a primary tone, and an optional "ending" tone depending on the use of the sounder's breath.

It cannot change its tone.  It has one note.  
That is why the only differentiation comes with the timing of one's breath, or limiting of one's breath, or the acceleration of one's breath.

 

You just went through the series of modern uses of the shofar.

To equate the series of blasts that are used in the Rosh ha-Shannah ceremony which has NINE repetitions of 11 different variations with one final blast - as ALL being the SAME BLAST 
~ is pure SPIN.

  • I'm used to your tortured rationalizations which allow you to make a pyramid on the earth for the New Heaven and New Earth's dwelling place we are to have with God.
  • I'm used to your various renditions of the Hebrew language which differ from every recognized Hebrew expert.
  • I'm used to your use of them to such an extent to be as legalistically precise that you actually fail to communicate.

However, I will never be able to convince you of anything.  Likewise, your equations have little effect upon me because I don't automatically jump down each and every of your rabbit holes.

Now, here is something:

In the scriptures however, thetekiah or tekiah gedolah is simply referred to as a long, sustained blast. This simple call was the signal to Moses and the people of Israel to come to the base of the Mt. Sinai (Exodus 19:13) and the call sounded by the priests at the famous battle of Jericho (Joshua 6:5).

The second of the Biblical calls sounded by the shofar is the teruah. In this instance, the underlying etymology of the Hebrew word appears to be its apparent mimicking of the verbal shout of war. Unlike the single tone of thetekiah, the teruah consists of short (i.e., staccato), rapid blasts on the primary tone (Leviticus 25:9).

So let me ask you some questions:

  • Have you ever heard the Lord blow the Last Trumpet?
  • Have you ever heard an Angel blow any Trumpet?
  • Seeing that you have heard neither: How can you say the two trumpets, blown by different individuals ~ is the SAME BLAST?

Shalom, Marcus.

Well, you obviously don't know anything about blowing trumpets! Even the modern trumpets with the three valves can play more than one note without pressing a valve! The same tube length can play the fundamentals, thirds, and fifths of those fundamentals. One just has to tighten or loosen one's lips against the mouthpiece, change the angle slightly, and change the pressure of the wind. 

You know those long plastic horns that are played at ball games? They're just tubes with a mouthpiece against which you vibrate your lips. They work the same as a shofar. Indeed, they're built similar to the silver shofars of the temple, only made of plastic instead. I can play several notes on those plastic horns.

Now, regarding the "Lord blowing the Last Trumpet," I take it you get this from 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

However, this passage does NOT say that Yeshua` blows the shofar Himself! Instead, it says that "The Lord Himself shall descend from the sky with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump(et) of GOD!" The "trump(et) of God" implies ownership of the trumpet. But, since when does a general sound the bugle? The general may order the bugle blower to sound the charge, but seldom would you find the general blowing the charge himself!

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5 hours ago, inchrist said:

Let me throw a spanner in the works here. There are two last trumpets for two types of Brides. 

There is the last trumpet for the church ( Rosh hashanah 7th trumpet of Rev - resurrection) - and the last trumpet for the torah believing Jews 10 days later (Rev 19 which is the day of atonement)

There is a prophetic template of Christ marring two brides in the story of Jacob, leigh and rebekah which the case is built on.

Hmmm . . . something to consider.

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18 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I don't have one on the short list of what I study.  Mostly, I look at linear narratives along my sequence-of-events analysis approach.
I do not focus on single words so much.  I am wary of using a simple word search to link Scripture together: context-context-context.

We know that the Day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night, and that day is when the immortality / rapture event happens.  What do you make of this context-context-context:

  • And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”  And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Revelation 16:13-16

Why is it that Jesus says what He does in the context of the armies gathering together for the great day of God?

 

18 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I like the opening to this particular passage:

Zec 9:11 As for you also, because of the blood of My covenant with you, ~ has SIGNIFICANT implication for US because we wash our robes clean in the Blood of the Lamb

I agree.  Have been mulling that exact thing over.

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10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, you obviously don't know anything about blowing trumpets! Even the modern trumpets with the three valves can play more than one note without pressing a valve!

Oh, for crying out loud.  Shofars do NOT play NOTES.  This whole criticism is a non-sequitur and a fallacy in argument.  I am amazed how much you "know" about what I know!  Such an attribute is usually reserved only for God!

What lengths you will go to win an argument!  This is the worst feature about these message boards - when one side attempts to "trump" (I love that pun, especially after the debate last night) the other side with some senseless side issue where they think they have the other side off-balance.  So some little crack that they perceive becomes the whole focus for saying "GOTHCHA!" and they "win" by default.  Nothing could be further from the truth - and as Christians, we ought to be concerned about getting to the heart of the matter: Is the Last Trumpet the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath?

By many measures, we can say they are not.

Now to your silly criticism.  Modern trumpets are not shofars.  A modern bugle has about four tones varying on the way the sounder purses his lips and the initial pitch he uses on the mouthpiece; a feature lacking in simple, natural animal horns, reeds, and wooden tubes, commonly used to make trumpets in ancient times.  In the OT, the silver trumpets had a mouthpiece.  This is an advancement in trumpet making over natural horns, yet all available information from that time, is that they did not employ notes in their signalling. In the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance, trumpet making advanced to where they could actually play "music" of a sort, (which is not what we're used to at all) and still, these natural trumpets were very limited in range.  The advancement in technology coming into the Industrial Age of a reed allowed better vibration so as to make notes, and then the circular reed came into play - all before the addition of tubing, valves and slides to vary the length of the tube, so that actual notes in a chromatic scale can be played.

Biblically: Trumpet blasts were not differentiated by tone.  This is because they lacked the modernization we have come to know.

In ancient times, as in when the Bible was written, the Priests used TWO different lengths of breath to differentiate the blasts.  But the whole litany of modern Jewish worship has doubled to a whooping FOUR.  That's it.  And NONE of them differentiate on tone, even though there is a slight variation in tone available in the start (and end) of each sounding.  These variations are not variable in pitch like a bugle which can produce four distinct notes ~ so it is not surprising that they aren't used.  They are simply too close to the primary tone to be discernible.

We're not talking about modern trumpets.  We're talking about the Last Trumpet and the seven Trumpets which are revealed when the Scroll is finally unsealed.

While Moses designed the two silver Trumpets, which were fixed in length and had no reed system (but did have a separate mouthpiece) - they were also "tuned" to sound the same.  This tuning is done in the manufacturing because length and diameter are key to the pitch of the natural (not modern) trumpet.

Now we don't know if the seven Trumpets the seven Angels blow are silver or not.  The Bible is silent on this.  Likewise, we don't know how the Last Trumpet is a Shofar or not as well.  So we can't differentiate on that basis.

We can say though, on the basis of how any ancient single metal trumpet or shofar was made - that any single trumpet could NOT play different notes!

However, we can still differentiate on WHO blows the Trumpet AND the PURPOSE of the Trumpet blast.

What you have tried to muddy, and are not deflecting is that any trumpet signal, no matter what its blast pattern is, is SINGULAR.

THUS:
Jesus and the Angels differentiate WHO blows their respective Trumpets, and 
the PURPOSE: His is an assembly Trumpet and theirs is an announcement Trumpet.

And modern trumpets range of notes has NOTHING to do with it.
So much for your "GOTCHA."

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2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

We know that the Day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night, and that day is when the immortality / rapture event happens.  What do you make of this context-context-context:

  • And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”  And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Revelation 16:13-16

Why is it that Jesus says what He does in the context of the armies gathering together for the great day of God?

Because it conveys a bit of information which is important.  It is part of the protection afforded the "woman" which figuratively is Israel in chapter 12's dual parallel accounts, and she represents the Remnant Jews God says actually survive the wholesale (ALL) death and destruction which awaits man in the end-times.

Context-context-context.

In the book of Revelation, we have parallel accounts.  Many divide the book because it cannot be read like a novel from end to end as one account.  So what I do is not new.  What I do, which is different, is to look for a change of both scene and focus to differentiate different, parallel accounts.

The break from the Seal/Scroll chronology of Rev 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) to chapter 12 takes us from a scene at the end of the one 'seven' after everything is over, and we go "back" to the time of the birth of Christ on earth.  Likewise, we go from focusing on unsealing and what happens afterward with the Scroll, which I think contains the desolations God has decreed from long ago as told in Daniel 9:26.  The twin aspect of Revelation 12 is that we then go back to the time of Christ in 12:7 - which I think is the aftermath of the Father's role of Judge in admonishing -twice- Satan in his role as prosecutor in Zechariah 3:1-8.  I think there is simply no place for Satan in Heaven with the Risen Lord.  The two cannot coexist in one place together; they are in complete opposition and the later has been twice-over rebuked.  While everyone predominately puts Satan's fall in 12:7 very close time-wise to the "end," I would note that for an immortal being, 2,000 years, is but a couple of days.  AND I would note that the active persecution of the Jews began soon afterward even by our time frame and has continued for all of these 2,000 years.

Now going back to parallel accounts, the period of one-half of the one 'seven' found in Rev 12:14 is the same period of protection found in Rev 12:6.  Both accounts, the first focusing on Israel, and the second focusing on the dragon Satan - end up being the same.  They are set in parallel.  Furthermore, by putting together a sequence-of-events (a thread I am locked out of, but still available for reading) I determined this half of the one 'seven' relates to the second half.

So getting to context ~ when we start chapter 13, the half here is found in 13:5 is set BEFORE the midpoint abomination revealed as the talking image of the beast of a man - the anti-Christ.  This time shift manifests a change of scene.  Likewise, the focus shifts from the dragon Satan, to the beast-of-a-nation and the beast-of-a-man.  The dragon of Rev 16:13 is not the same dragon as Satan, unless you want to say that Satan himself can be possessed by a still greater, more evil spirit.  No, I think the dragon of Rev 16:13 relates to the fourth terrible beast-of-a-nation first shown in 13:2 and later in the explanatory chapter of Rev 17 with the Harlot.

This is a long-winded explanation to say that I view Revelation 13-16 as one narrative: the detailed parallel account to the broad overview of the full range of the end-times presented with the Seal/Scroll chronology.  Rev 13-16 details the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ in the one 'seven'.  God is the best story-teller after all.

_______________________________________________________

Now with that said, Revelation 13 chronicles the first half of the one 'seven' leading up to the midpoint abomination: the talking image.
In addition, we see WHY the Great Tribulation, which Jesus told us happens right after that in the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:15-31, is so terrible for the Elect.

WHEN we move to chapter 14, what we are seeing here is God's Response.  Absent is any mention of God's First Responders: the Two Witnesses.  That was already covered in the "Sidebar Account" of Rev 11:1-13.  However!  We DO see a replication of two aspects of the sixth Seal from the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology: the 144,000 AND the Harvest which results in the Great Multitude of Rev 7:9-17.

Additional information is provided by the revelation of three Angels.  The FIRST Angel completes the condition Jesus gave in the opening broad overview of the end in the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:4-14 ~ The gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.   And I think that "end" He is referring to relates to the end of the Church Age: the ability for the selection of souls based upon their faith in Him.  The THIRD Angel tells the world what will become of them who worship the beast or took his mark.  This bit of information in Rev 14:6-11 gives the reason WHY the "kings of the earth" etc, etc, KNEW Jesus was coming for them so as to compel them to save their own skin by hiding deep underground in Rev 6:15-17.

AFTER the three Angels proceed- then we get to the Harvest, which again, I think is the end of the Church Age.

Now, some might beg difference that chapter 14 is not consecutive with 13 based on scene and focus.  However, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus goes from the midpoint abomination to the shortened Great Tribulation to the gathering of the Elect as one narrative.  Likewise, when viewed within the context of the one 'seven' a sequence-of-events approach in analysis provides, I see a differentiation of action whereby chapters 14-16 chronicle the FALL of the anti-Christ.  So there are two different halves of the one 'seven' with two different outcomes.

__________________________________________________________

Now that I have laid a basis for my context, and it's not easy, but then neither is the book of Revelation: here is my answer:

.

When we move past the Harvest, God's Wrath starts immediately with a second Angel appearing with a sickle.
This is part of the Wrath of God which ALSO occurs ON the Day of the Lord.
This Wrath is perfectly aligned with the first Trumpet in the Seal/Scroll account in that is deals out fire and blood.
These are two of the three elements of the Day of the Lord's Wrath found in the OT.  (Smoke is the third.)

In chapter 15, we see a quick advancement to the last of God's Wrath: the Bowl or Vial Judgments.
The preceding Trumpets are omitted; that information has already been provided.  
We can "fit" the second through sixth Trumpet in and now we can see what the Third Woe might have been as announced by a mighty Angel and the seventh Trumpet: The seven Bowls or Vials.

In this whole time - which is part of the second half of the one 'seven' - the woman Israel is protected.
Remember her?  From chapter 12, we know she is protected.
Jesus also implored those in Judea to flee at the midpoint abomination; they would be the initial cadre of the Remnant.
In Zechariah 14:5, a second contingent of Jews escape Jerusalem when Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives.; this would be an addition to the initial cadre.
These refugees are hidden by God as indicated in Isaiah 42:16

I will lead the blind by ways they have not known,
    along unfamiliar paths I will guide them;
  I will turn the darkness into light before them
    and make the rough places smooth.
  These are the things I will do;
    I will not forsake them.

It is in this light that I look to Rev 16:15.

Now "coming like a thief" is not specific, nor unique.  It is descriptive.  Jesus comes like a thief on the Day of the Lord.  He "steals" the most valuable thing in all the world right out from under the thumb of Satan and the ant-Christ: US, the Elect.  The ones they are trying to eradicate, and would have (or will have?) had not God the Father intervened in setting this Day so that the Bridegroom no longer "tarries."

Jesus comes like a thief on the Day of the Lord's Wrath.  His Army climbs over walls and through windows, which is also what a thief does.

Jesus also comes like a thief to the Remnant Jews that God protects through the second half of the one 'seven' in Rev 12:6, 14, and 16:15 - He comes unexpectedly.

They are "blind" because they do not yet "see" Jesus as Christ.  Had they, they would have been rescued with the Harvest.  Still, God knows their heart and He will not forsake them because of it.  So they must "make it" for 1335 days to His Millennium Reign and so have the veil of Moses lifted from their eyes and then Zechariah 12:10 will be accomplished!  (...so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him...)

NOTICE: those who are not clothed - are not kicked out of the wedding ceremony nor are they locked out of the house!
They continue WITH everyone else, and only suffer the shame of being seen naked.
This is not like what happens to the tares of the field who are left behind when the Harvest comes to suffer destruction.

______________________________________________

The great day of God is language John uses which can be interpreted as the Day of the Lord.
After all, that Day is great to us, and Jesus is fully God.
However, the triumphant conclusion of the one 'seven' is not called the "Day of the Lord" by John.
He makes this distinction. 
IF it were the same - I think he would have called it so, but he doesn't.

There are TWO battles which are said to happen ON the Day of the Lord.
The first in Jerusalem, and the second in the Valley of Decision.
Scholars peg this second location to Jehoshaphat to a area around Jerusalem.

Armageddon, or better, Har Megiddo is a broad plain in the hill country of Ephraim around the mountain (Har) Megiddo.
It is an important battlefield from the time of ancient Israel and where they scored significant victories over the nations.

It is THIS area which is the site of the final battle of the one 'seven' which concludes all war as per Daniel 9:26.
This final battle, which Jesus and His Army prepare to go out to do battle from Heaven with the sound of the cheering from a Great Multitude - is a fixture of the Epilogue of Revelation in chapter 19, beginning the final parallel account of that book.

The Day of the Lord is fought around Jerusalem and Bethlehem.
The great day of God is fought at Armageddon.
The two are not named the same, nor are their battle fought in the same area.

______________________________________________

Thus, Rev 16:15 does not concern the Elect, nor is it indicative of the Harvest which was previously accomplished BEFORE God's Wrath goes forward.

In a Pre-Wrath model, Rev 16:15 concerns the Remnant Jews God marshals through the utter destruction upon the earth which occurs during the second half of the one 'seven.'

I'm sorry for the long-winded answer, but your question was sincere, and it deserves a full answer.

Thank-you for your time in reading all this.

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20 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:
21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I am going to trust both of them, because both are accurately reporting what they have experienced.

I don't trust the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, who are hiding from the face of Lord because the third Angel tells them He is coming for them - to tell me at that specific point what is actually happening.

So you admit that they are hiding from the Face of the Lord. Good. Because if they are seeing his Face -- they would have no reason to hide otherwise -- that means the Day of the Lord has begun at this point, which marks the beginning of the Wrath. Which is exactly what Rev. 6:16-17 says, and what I trust.

But then you go on to presume -- without any contextual support from Revelation 6 whatsoever -- that the Beast kingdom has already been established by then [see quote below], and the 3rd angel of Rev. 14 has already appeared. Which is why I don't trust what you teach. The fact is, supported by the foreshadowing event of the Exodus, that each one of the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls takes place in consecutive sequence. All of Revelation 6 takes place well before any event in Rev. 14.

23 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

~ The ones who have taken the mark of the beast and worshiped the talking image, who were told by the third of three Angels (Rev 14:9-11) that they were going to suffer for it,

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