Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

On 6/17/2017 at 6:34 PM, BobRyan said:

Nothing in Revelation says the group in Rev 7 -- is larger than the group in Rev 14.

There is only one "group" found in chapter 14, and it is the 144,000. That group is easily numbered. The last group of chapter 7 is too large to number.

In case you missed it - there are TWO groups in Rev 7, with no connection between them except they are written in the same chapter. The first group are HEBREWS and there will be 144,000. The second group is the raptured church and they are too many to number.  TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS. By the way, the first group is on the earth, the second group is in heaven. How did you miss these details?

On 6/17/2017 at 6:34 PM, BobRyan said:

Rev 19 says nothing at all about "Saints already rapture and in their resurrected bodies"

God certainly did not kick that group too large to number seen around the throne in chapter 7 out of heaven. We can be sure they are still there in chapter 19. Only in chapter 19, there are more: the 144,000 are added to that group.

 

On 6/17/2017 at 6:34 PM, BobRyan said:

The saints await for their master to return from the marriage supper. Luke 12:36

Excellent point! I am glad you see this. He is returning AFTER the wedding, as shown to us in Rev. 19. But who are these saints? One thing we can know for SURE: they are NOT the group too large to number seen in chapter 7: they were raptured out before the week began.  Could it be they are the Jews still looking for their Messiah, having totally missed His first coming? There will not be many believers in Christ then, for the Beast will have separated most of them from their heads. Who else is left but the Jews?

" Rev 15 has an "insert" talking about the end-goal "

Please show us the verses and why you imagine this is an insert.

Edited July 13, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, BobRyan said:

Matt 24 is very clear - we have a post trib rapture of the saints at the second coming.

Matthew 24 is clear that there is a gathering. But to date no one has ever successfully proved that this gathering is Paul's gathering. Indeed, upon a close examination this gathering comes from a different place that Paul's gathering.

Edited June 18, 2017 by iamlamad

[Issachar2007]

To understand the timing of the rapture, you MUST understand the "Day of the Lord" and its usage in both the Old and New Testaments.

This is the ONLY honest view of Matt 24.  The websites and books below will educate you if you care to look deeply.  But the bottom line is, the Church will go through part of the seven years of the Tribulation.  And this view answers clearly all of the problems with pre, mid and post trib views.

http://www.prewrathministries.org/

http://www.thegospelintheendtimes.com/author/admin/

http://www.alankurschner.com/category/blog/

http://prewrathrapture.com/

http://christskingdom.org/

http://www.alankurschner.com/2016/10/13/3-recent-prewrath-books/

http://www.feastsofthelord.net/prewrathrapture/

 

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Issachar2007 said:

To understand the timing of the rapture, you MUST understand the "Day of the Lord" and its usage in both the Old and New Testaments.

This is the ONLY honest view of Matt 24.  The websites and books below will educate you if you care to look deeply.  But the bottom line is, the Church will go through part of the seven years of the Tribulation.  And this view answers clearly all of the problems with pre, mid and post trib views.

http://www.prewrathministries.org/

http://www.thegospelintheendtimes.com/author/admin/

http://www.alankurschner.com/category/blog/

http://prewrathrapture.com/

http://christskingdom.org/

http://www.alankurschner.com/2016/10/13/3-recent-prewrath-books/

http://www.feastsofthelord.net/prewrathrapture/

 

 

For anyone to know for sure if the rapture will be "pretrib"....first one must know what everyone else believes about "the trib." Do they mean the 70th week of Daniel? Let's suppose that is what is meant.

Therefore, to know for sure if the rapture will be pretrib, one must know where the 70th week begins and where the rapture will be, on a timeline of some kind. John gives us a nice timeline in Revelation. However, my guess is 99.99% of all prewrathers don't really know on John's timeline where the 70th week of Daniel begins. My guess is, most will say at seal #1, and they would be wrong.

Perhaps most prewrathers would get the rapture part right on this timeline. I studied Rosenthal and Van Kampan's first books and if my memory serves correct, they believed correctly that the rapture was just before the 6th seal, and the great crowd seen around  the throne in heaven was the just raptured church.

Their biggest error was not knowing that the 70th week of Daniel will not start until the 7th seal. They failed to understand chapters 4 & 5 that gives us the timing of the first 5 seals. They did not understand that in chapter 5, John got to see the moment Jesus ascended back into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down.....so around 32 AD.  John gave us the timing of the first seals: 32 AD. There is no hint of a long wait until the 5th seal.  So clearly in Revelation the rapture comes before the 70th week. I would call that pretrib.

 

[Pudgenik]

On Friday, June 12, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Also, I suggest that you change the name of this thread to 

 

Defense of the prewrath or prewrath/whatever position, since when one responds to it, as I just did, it shows as defense of the post-trib

when it gets truncated on the worthy christian forums page index

Ah, you encountered the hornets nest. Be at peace, you are not alone.

[Pudgenik]

On Saturday, June 17, 2017 at 6:10 AM, Diaste said:

It is fair and true. Have you ever heard this, "If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck."?  Three factual premises precede a factual conclusion. However with some people they will conclude it's really a kitten in a duck suit, because they have special knowledge, see deeper, or have bias, an agenda, or adhere to an ideology. Forget the facts! We have to prove our point! That's the  important thing, they must ignore fact to arrive at an already formulated conclusion. 

And even if apparently wise people have presented a compelling case it does not follow these same people are free from personal agendas or bias while engaging in a great deal of speculation. A fact, "The sky is blue." for instance, is objectively true even if smart thoughtful people claim it's purple. This is what occurs in bible prophecy. A bible prophecy is going to be fulfilled exactly as written and so there is only one correct answer, no matter how many 'wise bible students' advance convincing arguments. 

It's odd to me that anyone is comfortable with the concept, 'seeing the pertinent scriptures differently' as a way to discern the truth of scripture. Of course anyone is allowed to come up with any fact or conclusion that strikes their fancy but this will not lead to objective truth and is nothing more that private interpretation, which Peter condemns in prophetic study.

2 Peter 1

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Among other things, any private interpretation of prophecy negates the work of the Holy Spirit and demeans the holiness of the men of God who received the prophecy initially. Any private interpretation of the written word of prophecy, by those claiming special knowledge through the power the Holy Spirit, means the Spirit must have been wrong in antiquity and is just now getting it correct. Bollocks.

Well said is this:

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

 This occurs like a plague in modern times, especially in bible prophecy.

Sorry i don't quack

[Diaste]

On 7/6/2017 at 0:49 PM, Pudgenik said:

Sorry i don't quack

How can u be sure?

[Pudgenik]

12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

How can u be sure?

I'm more of a stick in the mud type of guy. Or one who likes to stir up hornet and ant nests.

[Diaste]

On 7/4/2017 at 4:27 PM, iamlamad said:

For anyone to know for sure if the rapture will be "pretrib"....first one must know what everyone else believes about "the trib." Do they mean the 70th week of Daniel? Let's suppose that is what is meant.

Therefore, to know for sure if the rapture will be pretrib, one must know where the 70th week begins and where the rapture will be, on a timeline of some kind. John gives us a nice timeline in Revelation. However, my guess is 99.99% of all prewrathers don't really know on John's timeline where the 70th week of Daniel begins. My guess is, most will say at seal #1, and they would be wrong.

Perhaps most prewrathers would get the rapture part right on this timeline. I studied Rosenthal and Van Kampan's first books and if my memory serves correct, they believed correctly that the rapture was just before the 6th seal, and the great crowd seen around  the throne in heaven was the just raptured church.

Their biggest error was not knowing that the 70th week of Daniel will not start until the 7th seal. They failed to understand chapters 4 & 5 that gives us the timing of the first 5 seals. They did not understand that in chapter 5, John got to see the moment Jesus ascended back into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down.....so around 32 AD.  John gave us the timing of the first seals: 32 AD. There is no hint of a long wait until the 5th seal.  So clearly in Revelation the rapture comes before the 70th week. I would call that pretrib.

 

It's no wonder you are misinformed, relying on mankind to interpret bible prophecy. 

But lets suppose the great tribulation is synonymous with the 70th week. And while we are at it, lets suppose Jesus comes three times. And lets suppose there is a huge group of people that are so perfect in all their ways, fully righteous and have not sinned, robes already washed and no spot or blemish is found on them, that are simply snatched from the earth.

Lets go even further and suppose all the Christian leaders have taught and lived perfectly before the Lord and led their flocks in the same way. Ever deeper down the rabbit hole, this mass group must know they are righteous with a certainty that borders on godlike judgement of their own hearts and minds as well as bodies. Pretty impressive. I am definitely not in that group.

Great tribulation only begins after the A of D at the midpoint. The midpoint is the sign great tribulation is about to begin. At the 5th seal we see the results of the great tribulation, shown in the 4th seal, so the midpoint occurs before the fifth seal, meaning the 70th week has been underway for 3.5 years already.  The contention the 70th week begins at the 7th seal is provably false.

But you just keep 'supposing' and listening to men. You'll be in for a great many surprises.

[BobRyan]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

It's no wonder you are misinformed, relying on mankind to interpret bible prophecy. 

But lets suppose the great tribulation is synonymous with the 70th week. And while we are at it, lets suppose Jesus comes three times. And lets suppose there is a huge group of people that are so perfect in all their ways, fully righteous and have not sinned, robes already washed and no spot or blemish is found on them, that are simply snatched from the earth.

Lets go even further and suppose all the Christian leaders have taught and lived perfectly before the Lord and led their flocks in the same way. Ever deeper down the rabbit hole, this mass group must know they are righteous with a certainty that borders on godlike judgement of their own hearts and minds as well as bodies. Pretty impressive. I am definitely not in that group.

Great tribulation only begins after the A of D at the midpoint. The midpoint is the sign great tribulation is about to begin. At the 5th seal we see the results of the great tribulation, shown in the 4th seal, so the midpoint occurs before the fifth seal, meaning the 70th week has been underway for 3.5 years already.  The contention the 70th week begins at the 7th seal is provably false.

But you just keep 'supposing' and listening to men. You'll be in for a great many surprises.

Amen! wayyy toooo much "supposin".

 

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by BobRyan