Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Diaste]

19 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I'm not sure I want to introduce that to this topic.  Maybe you should start a topic on the subject and specifically what you're searching for.  I'd like to see other peoples' thoughts on it as well.  I will post one here but won't comment on it.

• Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.  Daniel 2:35
• In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.  Daniel 2:44

I understand. I'm convinced that an understanding of WHEN the kingdom of God comes is pivotal to end of the age understanding in general and the gathering of the elect in particular. I'm really just evidence gathering and the reason I'm asking is because I don't know if I have all the evidence and would like to see anything I'm  missing.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, fixerupper said:

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; 
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The last trump is where the prophetic event of a gathering occurs.  The last trump can only be the seventh Trump because both are related to in a series of prophetic events.  It's crazy to say it's anything else.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

I know you could care less about hermeneutics, and so do many others.  Many of you don't know the difference when an article IS or IS NOT used in Greek and Hebrew.  In every verse where the last Trump of God is mentioned it is used with the article or preposition indication it's a specific trumpet.  The words, "as it were " is John's way of obeying his original command from God in Revelation 1:19 to write down how he perceives what he sees.  

In fact...

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: That verse is written like this in the interlinear...   IN SOUND OF(voice)-chief-messenger(archangel) and IN TRUMPET OF-GOD   Other verses use the article instead of the preoposition.  Both indicate they come from God and nowhere else.

The last trump Lamad, not a Jewish trumpet.  The trump of God Lamad, not the trump of man!

If it is the "Trump of God" then it CANNOT be the 7th trumpet which an angel sounds. God Himself will blow the trumpet at the rapture.  This is elementary.

Edited July 24, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

You know iamlamad,

It looks to me that 70% of recent posts in this thread, are from you. I have not read them, but I am wondering, how many of those posts, are on the topic. The topic is "Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position". Do really have that much to say, defending that position?

No, in fact, I have that much to say AGAINST a postrib / prewrath position. It is simply not a scriptural position.

[OldCoot]

6 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This is true ONLY for those who are born again.

That is correct!   

I love how folks will use...

Galatians 3:28 (NKJV) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Yet they fail to see that there is neither male or female.  If that verse is meant to assume that there are no physical Jews or Gentiles, then to support that view, they should take a dozen males and females in the congregation, put them up front for all to see, and have them strip down to show there is no male or female.  The whole contention that there are neither physical Jews and physical Gentiles is absurd.  It is only a spiritual assertion that expounds that we are all equal in Messiah.  There is no division, no caste system, etc.

Edited July 24, 2017 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, brakelite said:

It becomes clairvoyancy the moment you ignore scripture and attempt to understand prophecy outside of God's guidelines. Jesus said

John 14:29 
 ‭And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.‭ 

John 16:4 
 ‭But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.‭ 

Mark 13:29 
 ‭So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, ‭even‭ at the doors.‭ 

Luke 21:31 
 ‭So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.‭ 

...and many more like the above....history repeats and only as we consider history can we comprehend the future.

Sorry, my friend, but Paul was NOT a clairvoyant. He heard from the head of the church. It was revealed knowledge. Did you miss what Jesus said: "my sheep hear my voice?" This is how Martin Luther came to know that salvation was by faith alone.  It is how God has kept His church straight over the many years.

By the way, I do NOT "ignore" scriptures.

Edited July 24, 2017 by iamlamad

[Last Daze]

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

We are very close now to the end of the 6000 year lease.

And I pray that you fare well Lamad.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Last Daze said:

And I pray that you fare well Lamad.

Thanks, Last Daze! How nice of you. And I pray you will not be left behind.

[OldCoot]

12 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No, in fact, I have that much to say AGAINST a postrib / prewrath position. It is simply not a scriptural position.

Ok, I'll bite...  see if this scripture reference might suggest of a removal of the righteous before the wrath of God is poured out....

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Yeshua did say that in His Father's house there were many chambers, and that He was going to prepare a place for the righteous.  If there is no removal of the righteous, what is the purpose of those chambers then?   Window dressing?

Edited July 24, 2017 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, my friend, but Paul was NOT a clairvoyant. He heard from the head of the church. It was revealed knowledge. Did you miss what Jesus said: "my sheep hear my voice?" This is how Martin Luther came to know that salvation was by faith alone.  It is how God has kept His church straight over the many years.

By the way, I do NOT "ignore" scriptures.

Yeah, while Martin Luther has been influential in reforming the Church, and he did recognize what Paul had tried to pound into people regarding Habbakuk 2:4, that the just shall live by faith, Luther stepped on his duffle bag in many areas. And his anti-Semitic views were espoused during the Nazi regime.

From Luther himself.  Is it possible he wrote Mein Kampf for Hitler?  Hitler sure plagiarized Luther....

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe­conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

* * *

But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. for our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God.

* * *

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now but that we have now given them their due reward.

* * *

I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in, proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated. "

* * *

My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews, but also to become the foe of the Jews' malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils. May Christ, our dear Lord, convert them mercifully and preserve us steadfastly and immovably in the knowledge of him, which is eternal life. Amen.

---

 

 

[Last Daze]

10 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Yeshua did say that in His Father's house there were many chambers, and that He was going to prepare a place for the righteous.  If there is no removal of the righteous, what is the purpose of those chambers then?   Window dressing?

The Father's house a place of hiding?  To me, "hiding" indicates the presence of a clear and present danger.