Ezra Posted June 25, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 25, 2015 In the entire span of things from Genesis to Revelation there are many "last days". There is the last day of the Old Covenant, and the last day of the Church Age, the last day of the Tribulation age, and the last day of the Millennial age, and the last day where final judgment will occur. It is interesting to note that only Christ used the term "the Last Day" not only in connection with the righteous but also the unrighteous. However, the apostles use the term "the last days" or "the latter times". We need to be clear that that period extends for at least 1,000 years, although we at present are also in the last days (Heb 1:2). So technically the last days began with the first coming of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted June 26, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 26, 2015 Just came across this and thought I'd add it for consideration: These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.” Revelation 17:14 Which confirms the truth that those who accompany Christ on white horses in Rev 19: 14 are the saints -- the called, the chosen, and the faithful. I would say this .. the group INITIALLY accompanying Christ & His angels in rev 19 are not the main body of Christians, which main group of believers are actually the outer court of the temple who get trampled in the tribulation .. and no, this is not an insult, but the plain truth because today, in the world, there are only 144 000 individuals who have the whole unpolluted truth of Christ's doctrine .. this group only is granted to wear white robes & is worthy to be called to the "feast" because they overcame during their walk unlike the others who could never truly take both feet out of Babylon the great .. the others (main group) must cleanse their robes through the fire of tribulation which is not the wrath to come, this is not personal opinion, otherwise we wouldn't have the 144k loyal ones (doctrinally speaking) now would we. Hi Serving I am glad you can see this. Only 144,000 sealed, no more and no less who follow the Lamb where ever he goes, who happen to sing a song that no man living knows except the 24 elders in heaven around the throne of God. It can only mean one thing, that they know the full doctrine and have been shown everything in the prophecies because they walk with the Lamb. They obviously have received Christ and are christians/believers. The rest will learn this song after the resurrection when they are made perfect in Christ. Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. It's obvious they will be picked up first, or else they would not be called the first-fruits of God and of the Lamb. They have not been defiled with women (religion/false doctrines) Why? because they followed the Lamb. They listened to the Shepperd's voice, the true Shepperd who cares for the flock. They are virgins (spiritually clean) They were redeemed from men (forgiven) They are sealed just before tribulation starts, so they are living saints, not dead saints. They seem so special, because of their devotion and faithfulness to Christ. After them, the rest of the saints will come, after they have been purged and made white, making it through in the final hour by making that final choice in choosing Christ, over the Mark of the beast, giving up everything for Christ, knowing their reward is coming. See how gracious our Lord is still. You have cleared something up for me brother concerning those coming out of heaven with Christ, for they (144,000) are pictured on Mt Zion with Christ (heaven) wearing white robes (rev 14:1) They are the first to be picked up and taken straight into heaven (not the air), the first reaping. When they come out with Christ, the rest of the saints will meet them in the air. A little something here I picked up also; Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, This is in groups of thousands. not like this number; Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; can you see the difference? There are more in the second lot which cannot be numbered. These would be from all generations serving Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted June 27, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Share Posted June 27, 2015 The Christian has no worthiness in himself or herself. Our worthiness is Christ Himself, since He is our righteousness, and we have been made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:21). Though not what I was pointing out, the above is an oversimplification of a far deeper matter. Of course we are nothing without the covering grace supplied by The Lord .. INITIALLY .., even new comers quickly come to understand this basic tenet .. but to say the Christian has no worthiness in himself overall, is not accurate. Notice I said INITIALLY .. that is because when one first comes to the Lord he is given a measure of Spirit, and the more one dedicates himself to the Lord and lives the gospels in sincerity, the more that given Spirit will flourish & grow & bear FRUIT. 2 Corinthians 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love. Ephesians 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. (To the Ephesians written from Rome, by Tychicus.) Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, If what you said were accurate that the believer has no worthiness in himself, then what of sincerity? Sincerity is then cast to the ground and become useless .. correct understanding of the matter should have directed you to say that the Christian had no worthiness in himself UNTIL coming under Christ's grace. Besides that, haven't you read that some will bear fruit a hundredfold some sixty some thirty? Or "to him that has, more will be given"? Or "Take heed how you hear, for what measure you mete will be meted unto you?" .. or .. that 144 000 were sealed for these follow the Lord wheresoever He goes? The Rapture/Resurrection is not about a reward for worthiness or a prize to be earned, but it is the completion of God's plan of redemption -- that those who are saved will be resurrected (if dead), perfected, and glorified, in order to be with Christ eternally (1 Jn 3:1-3). Again, only part accurate .. what of "My reward is with Me"? .. what of "to gain the prize"? Look, God makes generalizations, it is our duty to "unzip" those "files" of generalizations to get to the true meaning in it's entirety .. and within any given subject are relative units which make up the whole .. sweeping statements like the ones you have made do not represent those "units" but instead delete them wholly leaving us with "one liners" as it were .. though one liners are beneficial in a church setting for programming a believers mind into acceptance of various preferred interpretations .. they are not beneficial to the one who wants the whole picture of any given matter. So my point stands .. how can pre tribbers assume that they will be whisked away before the tribulation of the saints begins when even those 144k who are far more worthy are still here on the earth well into the wrath of God period? PS : The tribulation against the saints is not the same as the wrath of God against the marked world (mark of the beast) .. two separate events. Thanks Ezra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted June 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 27, 2015 Look, God makes generalizations, it is our duty to "unzip" those "files" of generalizations to get to the true meaning in it's entirety .. and within any given subject are relative units which make up the whole .. sweeping statements like the ones you have made do not represent those "units" but instead delete them wholly leaving us with "one liners" as it were .. though one liners are beneficial in a church setting for programming a believers mind into acceptance of various preferred interpretations .. they are not beneficial to the one who wants the whole picture of any given matter. PS : The tribulation against the saints is not the same as the wrath of God against the marked world (mark of the beast) .. two separate events. Excellent points. Sadly, so many operate on the rhetorical level instead of the dialectical. Fabricated terminologies are a part of the rhetoric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted June 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 27, 2015 Besides that, haven't you read that some will bear fruit a hundredfold some sixty some thirty? Or "to him that has, more will be given"? Or "Take heed how you hear, for what measure you mete will be meted unto you?" .. or .. that 144 000 were sealed for these follow the Lord wheresoever He goes? The Christians' fruits are essentially the fruits of the Holy Spirit, since "it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13). Again, only part accurate .. what of "My reward is with Me"? .. what of "to gain the prize"? After the Rapture, the saints must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive their rewards (or lose rewards). But neither Christ nor salvation nor the Rapture nor our inheritiance in Heaven are rewards per se -- they are all GIFTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted June 27, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Look, God makes generalizations, it is our duty to "unzip" those "files" of generalizations to get to the true meaning in it's entirety .. and within any given subject are relative units which make up the whole .. sweeping statements like the ones you have made do not represent those "units" but instead delete them wholly leaving us with "one liners" as it were .. though one liners are beneficial in a church setting for programming a believers mind into acceptance of various preferred interpretations .. they are not beneficial to the one who wants the whole picture of any given matter. PS : The tribulation against the saints is not the same as the wrath of God against the marked world (mark of the beast) .. two separate events. Excellent points. Sadly, so many operate on the rhetorical level instead of the dialectical. Fabricated terminologies are a part of the rhetoric. Thanks Daze, It's good we can all talk about it though .. like sharpening knives .. spiritual knives, blade sharpening blade good for the spirit & keeping our noses in the bible. Praise The Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted June 27, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Besides that, haven't you read that some will bear fruit a hundredfold some sixty some thirty? Or "to him that has, more will be given"? Or "Take heed how you hear, for what measure you mete will be meted unto you?" .. or .. that 144 000 were sealed for these follow the Lord wheresoever He goes? The Christians' fruits are essentially the fruits of the Holy Spirit, since "it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13). Again, only part accurate .. what of "My reward is with Me"? .. what of "to gain the prize"? After the Rapture, the saints must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive their rewards (or lose rewards). But neither Christ nor salvation nor the Rapture nor our inheritiance in Heaven are rewards per se -- they are all GIFTS. Hi Ezra, Yes of course it is the Holy Spirit causing the fruits to be borne .. you will get no disagreement from me there brother .. but as I am trying to say, the sincerity of the believer for example certainly plays a role as to how much the given spirit within can express itself (bear fruit) .. this real world observation can be noted in every believer we meet according to their sincerity which leads to personal boundaries each believer sets for him/herself .. which is certainly no mere theory, it is an observational fact .. spiritual fact .. which fact inevitably comes back to there certainly being a role for the believer to likewise fulfil .. a personal effort which effort works with the given & Holy Spirit within. We all must put in personal effort, we all must work with the given inner Spirit to be able to be groomed by that Holy Spirit to become that which The Lord is grooming us for. Exactly the same concept as faith without works, they go hand in hand, each reacting to the other and being of the other .. think about it, initially, one must willingly accept the grafting of the Spirit the Lord provides otherwise that given Spirit within will metaphorically "die" as it were (literally will leave the indwelling of that person), is this not an example of personal effort sourced from a conscious decision to accept that which is being offered? .. so again, there is still a personal effort involved .. I am in no way try to focus on men, but at the same time we can not forget that we all still play a personal role in working together in sincerity with that given inner Spirit to be able to bear fruit in the first place .. it is a symbiotic relationship of the mortal soul and the given & Holy Spirit meted out .. and come resurrection, that grafting process will be completed to give life to a very literally born again & new creature in The Lord. Again, if one can gain a reward, what does that imply? And likewise if one loses a reward, what does that in like manner reinforce? It reinforces personal effort at play .. brother, you can not have one without the other, just as one can not boast for having that which he would not otherwise have unless it were given him regardless of what personal effort was involved .. I am not concentrating on the believers personal effort, I am acknowledging it .. just like I acknowledge that that effort would be nothing but dirty rags if it were not for the given Holy Spirit .. It is the Lord for whom the glory goes, but we should not discount our own personal efforts (neither should we concentrate on them lest pride blossom), though they (personal efforts) pale in comparison and are as though nothing in the bigger picture, they are still there nevertheless .. Hence : Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Did the Holy Spirit in the above example fall short? Or did the believer fall short instead? (even though he still found mercy) .. see? How can the Holy Spirit fail / fall short? The Holy Spirit can not of "itself" fall short therefore there remains only one other explanation .. the believer personally fell short which again can only mean one thing .. personal effort was somewhat lacking in the above example .. brother, you can not argue this away, it is throughout the scriptures, After all .. it always takes two to tango my friend .. and the two will truly become one come the resurrection. Blessings Ezra. Edited June 27, 2015 by Serving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted June 27, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Hi Sister, I am glad you can see this. Only 144,000 sealed, no more and no less who follow the Lamb where ever he goes, who happen to sing a song that no man living knows except the 24 elders in heaven around the throne of God. Thanks Sister & agreed .. and that song "as it were" is undoubtedly the whole doctrine of Christ completely understood by those "singing it" .. pure & unpolluted / free of mistakes .. what a blessing that would be!! It can only mean one thing, that they know the full doctrine and have been shown everything in the prophecies because they walk with the Lamb. They obviously have received Christ and are christians/believers. The rest will learn this song after the resurrection when they are made perfect in Christ. Precisely .. Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. It's obvious they will be picked up first, or else they would not be called the first-fruits of God and of the Lamb. They have not been defiled with women (religion/false doctrines) Why? because they followed the Lamb. They listened to the Shepperd's voice, the true Shepperd who cares for the flock. They are virgins (spiritually clean) They were redeemed from men (forgiven) They are sealed just before tribulation starts, so they are living saints, not dead saints. They seem so special, because of their devotion and faithfulness to Christ. Agree on all points . After them, the rest of the saints will come, after they have been purged and made white, making it through in the final hour by making that final choice in choosing Christ, over the Mark of the beast, giving up everything for Christ, knowing their reward is coming. See how gracious our Lord is still. Exactly .. You have cleared something up for me brother concerning those coming out of heaven with Christ, for they (144,000) are pictured on Mt Zion with Christ (heaven) wearing white robes (rev 14:1) Oh, cool .. thanks Sister .. & yes .. spiritual Mount Zion as opposed to literal Mount Zion .. nice .. They are the first to be picked up and taken straight into heaven (not the air), the first reaping. When they come out with Christ, the rest of the saints will meet them in the air. Yes .. little something here I picked up also; Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, This is in groups of thousands. not like this number; Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; can you see the difference? I certainly can .. though I am aware of that scripture in Jude & have read it many times .. it didn't yet occur to me to use it in that way .. so .. very nice .. good job & I tip my hat to you!! There are more in the second lot which cannot be numbered. These would be from all generations serving Christ. Without a doubt in my mind too. God bless Sister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted June 28, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Share Posted June 28, 2015 The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows: 1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14). 2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9;Revelation 3:10). 3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17,5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41). 4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7;Matthew 24:29-30). 5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4;Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13;1 Thessalonians 4:13-18;1 Corinthians 15:50-54). Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct? 1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9;Revelation 3:10). 2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30). 3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31). The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire. On the surface this might look credible .. but when scrutinized .. 1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14). 1) 1 Thess 4:17 speaks of being caught up into the clouds at the 2nd coming .. without realizing then, the author admits that the "rapture" does occur post trib after all !! 2) & Rev 19 .. well .. besides them still being in the air !! .....? 2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9;Revelation 3:10). The author (not bopeep but the link she supplied) has confused the tribulation of the saints which comes first opposed to the wrath of God against the marked world which quickly follows opposed to that terrible time of great tribulation where all flesh is threatened aka WWIII which quickly leads to Armageddon (Christ destroying the worlds armies in Megiddo). 3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17,5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41). 1) Those being "delivered" in 1 Thess 4:13 have their timing of "deliverance" declared a mere 3 verses later in v16 .. which is .. the 2nd coming !! Again, without realizing the author shoots him/herself in the foot. 2) Matthew 24:40-41 shows believers being taken up .. another "act of deliverance" then that the author overlooks .. & .. not only that, there is no mention or hint of judgment for the believer at all except there is judgment exampled for and directed against the "strong man" whose house the Lord is breaking up!! That is the only judgment at play here .. again, the author errs. 4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7;Matthew 24:29-30). 1) 1 Corinthians makes no mention of secrecy but reveals a trumpet blast to herald the event (the last trump in fact which relates to the 2nd coming .. again !!).. a trumpet blast & secrecy don't exactly go hand in hand!! 2) The second coming will be visible to all .. yesssss .. but .. & as should be becoming obvious, this is when the "rapture" is occurring anyways .. so, the author makes a circular argument. 5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4;Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13;1 Thessalonians 4:13-18;1 Corinthians 15:50-54). Ummm .. oh boy !! .. Titus 2:13 speaks of spiritual morality & is not focussed on prophecy except for the mention of the glorious appearing of our Lord in v13 .. which is otherwise known as the 2nd coming !! so, the author is making pointless comparisons here to build a comparable case where no comparisons (one group is prophecies the other is moralities) exist to begin with !! all the while without realizing it the author is still promoting the 2nd coming. 1 Thess 4:13-18 we already touched on .. the language is 2nd coming & the timing revealed in v16 only confirms the timing is indeed the 2nd coming anyway?? Not only that, 1 Thess breaks the authors own supposition by explaining that certain end time events must take place before said process kicks in too!!!! Terribly confused!! 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 is another process taking place yet again!! Not only that, it's focus concerns events happening at the end of the millennium?? The author doesn't realise that this 1 Corinthians is another subject all together !! Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct? Vested interests is why I'd wager .. to promote a "brand" which will appeal to a percentage which in turn secures a "consumer base" which supports book after book after DVD after DVD after .. well .. you get my drift .. just follow the money. 1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9;Revelation 3:10). Matthew 11:6 "And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in Me" .. Matthew 13:20-21 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30). Actually the "many things to occur" actually occur very rapidly once initiated .. in the span of 7 years to be exact .. do I need to point out that once the false prophet appears and the events kick in .. the feeling of inevitability will be the most overriding feeling throughout all of Christendom!! Not forgetting that being put to death during that process is quite imminent indeed in relation to the 2nd coming .. think about it ..for the martyred time stands still .. so, off with the head in one breath then in the same instant (since time stands still at point of death) the deceased finds him/herself being taken up to the Lord in the clouds as though no time has passed at all !!.. how beautiful. 3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31). ch6 speaks of believers being killed, believers make up the "church" last I read .. ch7 speaks of the 144 000 CHRITIANS & also describes believers who were beheaded for Jesus' sake .. er, believers = Christians = "the church" ch8 mentions the prayers of believers being answered by a series of punishments on the world known as the wrath of God which is the method God uses to avenge His believing children !! .. believers = " the church" ch9 continues from ch8's punishment on behalf of those believers .. reference to the "church" again ch10 takes a look at John receiving revelations .. c11 speaks of the "church" being trampled along with relevant information on the enemy .. the "church" is the outer court !! They have to be purified by fire .. take that away & no "rapture" for the church can be possible by the process decreed !! Not only that, this chapter also finds the saints being rewarded !! .. saints = believers = " the church" ch12 shows Satan warring against the " Church" since believers make up the " church" then they are mentioned .. ch13 reveals anyone refusing the mark will be killed .. mainly only the believers will refuse the mark .. believers = " the church" so they are mentioned again ch14 speaks of the elite believers, the 144k .. then come warnings to believers = " the church" not to take the mark of the beast .. leading to a judgment for those who do take said mark leading to the harvest = " rapture" of the good = " the church" and a terrible judgment for the bad = non believers !! ch15 shows the "church" victorious before the Lord after their death at the hands of the beast !! ch16 gives more insight to the wrath with a reference to the believers = " the church" to keep their garments ch17 deals with the Harlot ch18 deals with Babylon the Great & declares that the believers = " the church" are being avenged for being killed .. linking to ch6's 5th seal !! ch19 deals with the coming of a particular group that was worthy to be clothed in white .. sound familiar? the 144k are that group initially coming with Christ & His angels .. the only ones given white robes whereas all others robes must be put through the fire to be cleansed !! The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire. Evolutionists say, "nature appears to show design, but appearances are just that, there is no design" Pre tribbers say the " rapture" & the 2nd coming appear to be the same event, but they are not, they just appear to be" .. Hmm .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted June 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2015 2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30). The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire. Some additional thoughts on these two...... 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 tells us what must take place before the resurrection / rapture. There is no such thing as the imminent return of Christ before that happens. Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 2 Thess 2:1-3 According to this passage, the resurrection / rapture (our gathering together to Him) will not come until after the apostasy and the revealing of the son of destruction. Some have tried to interpret the apostasy (departure) as the rapture which makes no sense. ----------------------------- The resurrection / rapture happens at the seventh trumpet and Christ returns at the seventh bowl within the same day. Yes, they are separate events separated by little if any time. Once those who are Christ's are raised immortal (resurrection / rapture) they are outside of time. They are at the marriage supper. Time is of no consequence to them. Seventh trumpet (resurrection / rapture): And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Seventh bowl (return of Christ): Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “It is done.” And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.....And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe. Coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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