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The 24 Elders Described Revelation, Who Are They???


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Kan said in post 23:

 

They are not angels. Revelation 5:9 shows that they have been redeemed from among men and made kings and priests.

 

Note that at the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and the 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

 

Kan said in post 23:

 

When Jesus was raised, He also took with Him a whole lot of people raised from the dead, from all ages and eras.

 

Are you thinking of those raised in Matthew 27:52?

 

If so, note that the original Greek word (egeiro: G1453) translated as "arose" in Matthew 27:52 can refer to recently-dead people's bodies being resuscitated back to mortal life, like how Jesus "raised (egeiro)" the recently-dead Lazarus (John 12:1), who was one of Jesus' followers (John 11:11, cf. John 15:14), back to mortal life, by crying out with a loud voice (John 11:43-44). The dead saints who were raised sometime later when they heard Jesus cry out with a loud voice on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-52, John 5:25), and who came out of their graves after Jesus' physical resurrection (Matthew 27:53), could have also been recently-dead followers of Jesus. Their bodies were resuscitated back to mortal life, like happened with Lazarus (John 12:1). For the resurrection of Jesus' followers into immortal physical bodies won't happen until his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

Kan said in post 23:

 

These were the first fruits that Jesus took with Him to heaven to begin His ministry as High Priest.

 

The 3 stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 physical resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits physical resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23); 2. the future physical resurrection of the entire church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31), and right before the millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the physical resurrection at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

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Ezra said in post 26:

 

Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus were two of THE MOST CORRUPT MANUSCRIPTS in existence.

 

That could be right.

 

For Codex Sinaiticus, which the NIV, for example, is based on, was found in a trash heap in a monastery on Mount Sinai. No doubt it had been thrown in the trash because it was a such a faulty copy (e.g. it altered or skipped over too many words, and even skipped over whole verses and passages). And yet modern "scholars" try to claim the opposite: that a manuscript thrown in the trash must be one of the "most reliable" of all.

 

Also, it has never been proven that the Textus Receptus (which the KJV is based on) is less reliable than any other text, or that it is not the most reliable text of all.

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Codex Sinaiticus

 

Codex Sinaiticus is one of the most important books in the world. Handwritten well over 1600 years ago, the manuscript contains the Christian Bible in Greek, including the oldest complete copy of the New Testament. Its heavily corrected text is of outstanding importance for the history of the Bible and the manuscript – the oldest substantial book to survive Antiquity – is of supreme importance for the history of the book. [Find out more about Codex Sinaiticus.]

 

http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/

 

What is Codex Sinaiticus?

 

What is Codex Sinaiticus?
Codex Sinaiticus, a manuscript of the Christian Bible written in the middle of the fourth century, contains the earliest complete copy of the Christian New Testament. The hand-written text is in Greek. The New Testament appears in the original vernacular language (koine) and the Old Testament in the version, known as the Septuagint, that was adopted by early Greek-speaking Christians. In the Codex, the text of both the Septuagint and the New Testament has been heavily annotated by a series of early correctors.
 
The significance of Codex Sinaiticus for the reconstruction of the Christian Bible's original text, the history of the Bible and the history of Western book-making is immense.
 
 
 
 

Codex Sinaiticus

 

Despite its rather austere appearance, the Codex Sinaiticus is a treasure beyond price. Produced in the middle of the fourth century, the Codex is one of the two earliest Christian Bibles. (The other is the Codex Vaticanus in Rome.) Within its beautifully handwritten Greek text are the earliest surviving copy of the complete New Testament and the earliest and best copies of some of the Jewish scriptures, in the form that they were adopted by the Christian Church. As one of the earliest luxury codices to survive in large part, the Codex forms one of the most important landmarks in the history of the book.

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/codexsinai.html

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But where did this office of elder originate?

Regarding Rev 5:9

Scofield says:

"Most early N.T. manuscripts omit 'us' in verse nine, and read 'them' and 'they' instead of 'us' and 'we' in verse 10." (footnote #3, p.1357) 

Infact NIV has the correct rendering

You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God  from every tribe and language and people and nation.  You have made  them  to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and  they  will reign on the earth." NIV

The elders do not include themselves in the group from every "people and nation," 

Psalm 89:7 describes God enthroned among his “council.” Colossians 1:16, Eph 3:10 and 6:12 refer to angelic hierarchy as “thrones" and rulers

Is it any surprise we see the traditions from the OT carried over to the NT whereby John sees God enthroned among His council? 

 

 

Ancient Israel in the desert wanderings had 24 elders to assist with the governing by Moses.

 

The earthly system of the temple, was a miniature replica of the great heavenly temple, where Christ is the Priest. So there will be many similarities, if not copies, in the system of heaven.

 

Reading chapter 3 and 4 of Rev, shows that the elders are spoken about as distinct from the angels.

The texts you provided for equating or associating thrones with angels, is not the same in the KJV.

 

Also the angels were not redeemed from earth, people - human beings were.

 

The Bible says that humans will judge (fallen) angels, I am not sure if it goes the other way around.

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Kan.

 

Well I’m in agreement that the earthly temple is a foreshadow of the Heavenly temple, In fact I went into that in my post #20 as well as presenting the internal evidence in #31, I am in complete disagreement with conclusion of the 24 elders being distinct from angels.
 
The four beasts and Elders are grouped together as noted in 
 
Rev 5:8
the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb
 
and 
 
Rev 14:3 KJV
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
 
Here we can clearly see the four Beasts and the Elders are distinct from the 144000 who were redeemed from the earth.
 
I think it’s safe to say we can eliminate the church as one of the suspects in the identity of the Elders

 

 

I thought that the 144,000 are distinct from the rest of the saints rather than angels, because they are the ones living on earth when Christ returns, as opposed to being raised from the dead as millions will be?

 

If you see the elders as angels, I don't have a problem with it, since they reflect the thoughts of the pure in heart (saints) anyway.

I can't see how it would matter, but I guess we'll know one day.

 

I don't see the elders on par with the four beasts, they have their place around the throne of God, but I get where you are coming from, and I think it is possible to draw either conclusion so far as relations in the scene go. I appreciate you sharing your view because I have not seen it before. It is always good to get different perspectives.

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But where did this office of elder originate?

Regarding Rev 5:9

Scofield says:

"Most early N.T. manuscripts omit 'us' in verse nine, and read 'them' and 'they' instead of 'us' and 'we' in verse 10." (footnote #3, p.1357) 

Infact NIV has the correct rendering

You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God  from every tribe and language and people and nation.  You have made  them  to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and  they  will reign on the earth." NIV

The elders do not include themselves in the group from every "people and nation," 

Psalm 89:7 describes God enthroned among his “council.” Colossians 1:16, Eph 3:10 and 6:12 refer to angelic hierarchy as “thrones" and rulers

Is it any surprise we see the traditions from the OT carried over to the NT whereby John sees God enthroned among His council? 

 

 

Ancient Israel in the desert wanderings had 24 elders to assist with the governing by Moses.

 

The earthly system of the temple, was a miniature replica of the great heavenly temple, where Christ is the Priest. So there will be many similarities, if not copies, in the system of heaven.

 

Reading chapter 3 and 4 of Rev, shows that the elders are spoken about as distinct from the angels.

The texts you provided for equating or associating thrones with angels, is not the same in the KJV.

 

Also the angels were not redeemed from earth, people - human beings were.

 

The Bible says that humans will judge (fallen) angels, I am not sure if it goes the other way around.

 

the bible does not add the word fallen in scripture.

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Kan said in post 32:

 

Reading chapter 3 and 4 of Rev, shows that the elders are spoken about as distinct from the angels.

 

Are you thinking instead of Revelation 7:11? If so, note that it mentioning "all the angels" separately from the 24 elders doesn't require that the  24 elders aren't also angels, just as, for example, Hebrews 13:24 mentioning "all the saints" separately from "them that have the rule over you" doesn't mean that "them that have the rule over you" aren't also saints, because they are (Hebrews 13:7,17). Just as "all the saints" in Hebrews 13:24 means all the other saints, so "all the angels" in Revelation 7:11 can mean all the other angels.

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Kan said in post 32:

 

Reading chapter 3 and 4 of Rev, shows that the elders are spoken about as distinct from the angels.

 

Are you thinking instead of Revelation 7:11? If so, note that it mentioning "all the angels" separately from the 24 elders doesn't require that the  24 elders aren't also angels, just as, for example, Hebrews 13:24 mentioning "all the saints" separately from "them that have the rule over you" doesn't mean that "them that have the rule over you" aren't also saints, because they are (Hebrews 13:7,17). Just as "all the saints" in Hebrews 13:24 means all the other saints, so "all the angels" in Revelation 7:11 can mean all the other angels.

 

 

I follow what you have said, but in the end we always have the four beasts, the elders, the angels, and the great multitude of saved people. And by the way thanks for the texts.

 

You would have noticed that the 144,000 are within, but also separate with the great multitude. So we have different positions and roles of the creatures/people/angels around the throne. The four beasts, the elders, the angels, the 144,000 and the multitude.

 

Verse 11 of 7, again, And the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders, and the four beasts, (and around the angels stood a vast multitude of people).

 

All the angels in this scene are first standing and then they bow down, but it leaves the beasts and the elders, and the great multitude standing in sight over the bowed angels. It leaves a whole lot of people from the multitude standing, to which one of the standing elders asks John do you know who these are?

 

Could this occasion be just for the angels to bow down, and the people will bow after in another scene? Otherwise what is the elder doing talking, if he is an angel he would have bowed too, no?

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Thanks for the insight into this, the last two posts were just brilliant.

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The sad part about this is if someone actually revealed who they were, there are many that wouldn't believe it - for this reason or that. 

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