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Peter on the Last Days - Part One


Omegaman 3.0

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1.  However, the disciples very likely knew about the resurrection on the last day.  Martha knew it as well.  John 11:24  He wasn't discussing the rapture in Matthew 24.  He was discussing the resurrection / rapture.  You can't separate the two.  

One would have to force the Resurrection/Rapture into the Olivet Discourse to come up with this conclusion.  There is NOT A HINT of any resurrection whatsoever in Matthew 24.  The Rapture is strictly related to the Church, and the Church was neither in existence at that time, nor in view in this passage.  That would have been premature and confusing to the apostles at that point. Context is everything.

We always seem to forget that God has a plan for the Church and another plan for redeemed and restored Israel on earth.  Once we get a grasp of that, there is absolutely no confusion. The Second Coming of Christ include God's direct dealings with the nation of Israel.

You can not separate the resurrection from the rapture.  It is a one-time event that happens when Christ returns.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.  1 Thess 4:16-17

Concerning the resurrection, i.e. being raised immortal:

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.  1 Corinthians 15:23

See there when the resurrection / rapture happens?  Now lets look at Matthew 24.

And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:30-31

Please explain to me how "there is NOT A HINT of any resurrection whatsoever in Matthew 24."

  • the resurrection and the rapture can not be separated.  1Thess 4:16-17
  • the resurrection / rapture happens at Christ's coming.  1 Corinthians 15:23
  • Christ's coming is stated in Matthew 24:30

We always seem to forget that what is plainly stated in scripture should take precedence over any bias.  We should let scripture interpret scripture.  Once we get a grasp of that, there is absolutely no confusion.

Sorry to stray a bit from the OP, Omegaman.  Some assumptions just beg to be challenged.

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What is plainly stated in Scripture is that Christ first comes FOR His saints, and then He comes WITH His saints.  That does not happen at the same time or on the same day, since the Marriage of the Lamb takes place in between.

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Omega Post trib is a very popular view right now.I have studied all the eschatology views.The two discrepancies I showed you bothered me.

I perceive you are correct, at least here on these forums. Post-tribism seems to have gained in popularity, although I am not sure that what it seems, is necessarily what it is. What I mean is that from my conversations with people (not just here but in the face to face world), they have not always felt at ease to come out of the closet.

Years ago, in the chatroom here, if I mentioned that I was post-trib, people would get very upset with that (it still happens occasionally) and voice their opposition very passionately. It was difficult for me to defend my position, because people would post some scripture or ask one of those "well what about so and so"  type questions, so fast, that I could not possible keep up with the machine gun fire of questions. It was easy tfor mr to understand, why people were reluctant to voice their opinions. Who needs that sort of contentious discussion? Who wants a barrage of opposition, or even to cause such tensions? I don't!

What I think is, that there are different views. Some people have never heard other views much, and have been exposed to primarily one teaching on this topic. It is small wonder that they have a reaction to a viewpoint that is not the same as their viewpoint. Whenever I listened to teaching on Christian radio, be it J. Vernon McGee, or a Calvary Chapel  or whatever, if it was exhatology, it was pre-trib. There were movies on it in the 70's (A distant Thunder comes to mind), and in more recent years there were the Left Behind movies. Contemporay Christian Music sometimes spoke of our gathering to Him, but never mentioned any tribulation. In Christian Book Stores, the shelves were full of pre-trib books, yet I know people, interested in eschatology, who are not even aware if any post-trib book exist! Hal Lindsey wrote books on the pre-trib rapture, that were secular best sellers, honestly, I am surprised that there are as many posties as there are!

Let's face it. If I say "X is the way it is" and you think Y is the way it is, then I have in essence, just told you you were wrong. No one wants to be wrong, let alone be told that they are. Some people are not wired to accept the possibility that they are wrong, and they take it personally, and get defensive. For some, I feel that there may be  bit of pride involved. To admit one is wrong, to even accept that possibility, takes a measure of humility. I myself was actually callled a Heretic here, by an administrator, no less, because I beleived in a post-trib rapture. I find this all, very odd, since it is all but imposible to find any mention in Christian literature, before 1830ish. If Pre-tribism is so Biblical, why was it so rare until the early 1900's?

You know that you and I differ also, on the topic of what some call Calvinism. I admit to embracing Calvinism, but that is a recent development in my beliefs, probably about two years old now. Looking back, I can see that pride had a bit to do with me not being able to see what strikes me now, as some painfully obvious truths in Calvinism. However, what I have found is, now that I realize that I had nothing t do with my own salvation, I find myself even more appreciative of what God, in Christ, has done for me. The only thing I have contributed to my salvation, is the sin that I needed to be saved from. I do not want to get off on that topic, but use it to illustrate that for me at least, pride can hinder my ability to see and to change, but it also illustrates that I am not so set in my ways, that I cannot change, even if I am a bit stubborn.

So, back to the idea f being in a closet, I know many posties are in a closet, but that seems to be changing a little. You say 'postieism' is popular. I am not sure I would go that far, but it certainly seems to have become more common, even acceptable to a degree that it was not a short time ago. It is my belief, however, that it was the norm at one time, although for a long time, eschatology was mostly ignored by the church. Darby changed that to some degree, but I think the rebirth of the nation of Israel, did a lot to move the topic into the limelight. Suddenly, something new and major had developed, and the events of the end times, were looking possible in a way they had not since 70 A.D.

In talking to many apologists and evangelical leaders over the years, I have occasionally asked them what their view on the timing of the rapture, with regard to the great-tribulation. I never asked this of people who I already knew their positions. I asked this of people for whom I had great respect for their sound, conservative theology. I think every one of them, admitted to being post-trib, if they voiced an opinion. I take that back, there was one who was pre-trib, the founding pastor of the church I was attending. Anyway, I asked: "Well, why is it that I have not heard your position before?" Generally the response was something like: "I I were to be vocal about it, my ministry would suffer!"

So, for myself, I decided that popularity and acceptance, we not going to be my priorities, I would be outspoken and unashamed of my beliefs, for as long as I am convicted of the truth of them, I expect nothing else from others. Differances of opinion on peripheral issues, does not make enemies, in fact, I think with mature Christians, it can even increase respect and comradery. I do not have to agree with everyone about everything, but I will not roll over and except all views as having legitimate equal standing. I love listening to people expound there reasons for believing what they believe. However, if I perceive what I believe to be either faulty logic, poor exegesis, or a failure to take into account certain relevant verses or passages, I typically speak up about it, and hope that they extend the same courtesy to me.

I mentioned earlier that no one likes to be wrong, but it is worse to be wrong, and to cling to ones errors, rather than be corrected. I much prefer being wrong and then changing, than to be wrong and be stuck there. As George once said: "I learn more from people I disagree with, than I do with those who agree with me," I think there is wisdom in that.

Because I am so long winded, I need to go back and reread what you said, to see what I a responding to, lol.

Omega Post trib is a very popular view right now.I have studied all the eschatology views.The two discrepancies I showed you bothered me.

Oh, well, congrats! I have been studying Eschatology for over 30 years now, and I have not yet studies all of the views. You have a couple of descrepancies that bother you. Nothing wrong with that of course. I have to wonder though, have I not listed a few discrepancies over the years on pre-tribism that bother you? If not, I must be doing a horrible job, lol. Don't give up, keep studying, be open, not to me nor anyone else, but be open to examine what others have to say, and compare them to scripture and be open to what the Spirit says to the churches.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

Let me close with one more familiar passage and an observation:

1 Pe 3:15 . . . sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

My observation is this" We are to be ready to give a defense for the hope that we have . . .  I suggest that our hope, our blessed hope, is not the Rapture, but Jesus Himself. He is were our focus should be, and whatever our eschatological differances are, we have Him in common. I hope that, in my passionate defense of peripheral matters, that I treat you and others, with gentleness and reverence. If I fail, I ask your forgiveness.

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20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

 

endtimespeter1.pdf

Well said Omegaman v3.0!

The day of the Lord, which is our gathering together to Him (resurrection / rapture) clearly happens after that significant prophetic sign.  That sign is associated with the sixth seal.

By the way, I don't have access to the pdf.

Don't worry about the pdf file, is is basically the same as the text in that post, just a better format for printing, that is all. I wrote the PDF first, and put it up as an attachment, then though to ut the text in a post, since some might not bother, or might not be able to download the PDF. You did not miss anything you did not already get in the post.

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Omegaman,

Some observations on what you have stated above . . . 

Thanks for the observations.

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The End Times - According to Peter - Part One

We do see, however, that a return of Jesus to gather the elect after the tribulation and before the day of the Lord, is spelled out in the clearest of terms, so we KNOW that is going to happen.

 

Just curious as to your understanding of the day of the Lord that you referenced in Joel. I've heard different conclusions as to what the Day of the Lord will be and was curious as to what your understanding is.

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Omega Post trib is a very popular view right now.I have studied all the eschatology views.The two discrepancies I showed you bothered me.

I perceive you are correct, at least here on these forums. Post-tribism seems to have gained in popularity, although I am not sure that what it seems, is necessarily what it is. What I mean is that from my conversations with people (not just here but in the face to face world), they have not always felt at ease to come out of the closet.

Years ago, in the chatroom here, if I mentioned that I was post-trib, people would get very upset with that (it still happens occasionally) and voice their opposition very passionately. It was difficult for me to defend my position, because people would post some scripture or ask one of those "well what about so and so"  type questions, so fast, that I could not possible keep up with the machine gun fire of questions. It was easy tfor mr to understand, why people were reluctant to voice their opinions. Who needs that sort of contentious discussion? Who wants a barrage of opposition, or even to cause such tensions? I don't!

What I think is, that there are different views. Some people have never heard other views much, and have been exposed to primarily one teaching on this topic. It is small wonder that they have a reaction to a viewpoint that is not the same as their viewpoint. Whenever I listened to teaching on Christian radio, be it J. Vernon McGee, or a Calvary Chapel  or whatever, if it was exhatology, it was pre-trib. There were movies on it in the 70's (A distant Thunder comes to mind), and in more recent years there were the Left Behind movies. Contemporay Christian Music sometimes spoke of our gathering to Him, but never mentioned any tribulation. In Christian Book Stores, the shelves were full of pre-trib books, yet I know people, interested in eschatology, who are not even aware if any post-trib book exist! Hal Lindsey wrote books on the pre-trib rapture, that were secular best sellers, honestly, I am surprised that there are as many posties as there are!

Let's face it. If I say "X is the way it is" and you think Y is the way it is, then I have in essence, just told you you were wrong. No one wants to be wrong, let alone be told that they are. Some people are not wired to accept the possibility that they are wrong, and they take it personally, and get defensive. For some, I feel that there may be  bit of pride involved. To admit one is wrong, to even accept that possibility, takes a measure of humility. I myself was actually callled a Heretic here, by an administrator, no less, because I beleived in a post-trib rapture. I find this all, very odd, since it is all but imposible to find any mention in Christian literature, before 1830ish. If Pre-tribism is so Biblical, why was it so rare until the early 1900's?

You know that you and I differ also, on the topic of what some call Calvinism. I admit to embracing Calvinism, but that is a recent development in my beliefs, probably about two years old now. Looking back, I can see that pride had a bit to do with me not being able to see what strikes me now, as some painfully obvious truths in Calvinism. However, what I have found is, now that I realize that I had nothing t do with my own salvation, I find myself even more appreciative of what God, in Christ, has done for me. The only thing I have contributed to my salvation, is the sin that I needed to be saved from. I do not want to get off on that topic, but use it to illustrate that for me at least, pride can hinder my ability to see and to change, but it also illustrates that I am not so set in my ways, that I cannot change, even if I am a bit stubborn.

So, back to the idea f being in a closet, I know many posties are in a closet, but that seems to be changing a little. You say 'postieism' is popular. I am not sure I would go that far, but it certainly seems to have become more common, even acceptable to a degree that it was not a short time ago. It is my belief, however, that it was the norm at one time, although for a long time, eschatology was mostly ignored by the church. Darby changed that to some degree, but I think the rebirth of the nation of Israel, did a lot to move the topic into the limelight. Suddenly, something new and major had developed, and the events of the end times, were looking possible in a way they had not since 70 A.D.

In talking to many apologists and evangelical leaders over the years, I have occasionally asked them what their view on the timing of the rapture, with regard to the great-tribulation. I never asked this of people who I already knew their positions. I asked this of people for whom I had great respect for their sound, conservative theology. I think every one of them, admitted to being post-trib, if they voiced an opinion. I take that back, there was one who was pre-trib, the founding pastor of the church I was attending. Anyway, I asked: "Well, why is it that I have not heard your position before?" Generally the response was something like: "I I were to be vocal about it, my ministry would suffer!"

So, for myself, I decided that popularity and acceptance, we not going to be my priorities, I would be outspoken and unashamed of my beliefs, for as long as I am convicted of the truth of them, I expect nothing else from others. Differances of opinion on peripheral issues, does not make enemies, in fact, I think with mature Christians, it can even increase respect and comradery. I do not have to agree with everyone about everything, but I will not roll over and except all views as having legitimate equal standing. I love listening to people expound there reasons for believing what they believe. However, if I perceive what I believe to be either faulty logic, poor exegesis, or a failure to take into account certain relevant verses or passages, I typically speak up about it, and hope that they extend the same courtesy to me.

I mentioned earlier that no one likes to be wrong, but it is worse to be wrong, and to cling to ones errors, rather than be corrected. I much prefer being wrong and then changing, than to be wrong and be stuck there. As George once said: "I learn more from people I disagree with, than I do with those who agree with me," I think there is wisdom in that.

Because I am so long winded, I need to go back and reread what you said, to see what I a responding to, lol.

 

Omega Post trib is a very popular view right now.I have studied all the eschatology views.The two discrepancies I showed you bothered me.

Oh, well, congrats! I have been studying Eschatology for over 30 years now, and I have not yet studies all of the views. You have a couple of descrepancies that bother you. Nothing wrong with that of course. I have to wonder though, have I not listed a few discrepancies over the years on pre-tribism that bother you? If not, I must be doing a horrible job, lol. Don't give up, keep studying, be open, not to me nor anyone else, but be open to examine what others have to say, and compare them to scripture and be open to what the Spirit says to the churches.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

Let me close with one more familiar passage and an observation:

1 Pe 3:15 . . . sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

My observation is this" We are to be ready to give a defense for the hope that we have . . .  I suggest that our hope, our blessed hope, is not the Rapture, but Jesus Himself. He is were our focus should be, and whatever our eschatological differances are, we have Him in common. I hope that, in my passionate defense of peripheral matters, that I treat you and others, with gentleness and reverence. If I fail, I ask your forgiveness.

I guess time will tell hu....oops huh brother? :D

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What is plainly stated in Scripture is that Christ first comes FOR His saints, and then He comes WITH His saints.  That does not happen at the same time or on the same day, since the Marriage of the Lamb takes place in between.

Please explain to me why going to the marriage supper of the Lamb precludes Christ coming for and with His saints from happening in the same day?  Don't you realize that at the resurrection / rapture that we will be immortal?  What is time to an immortal?

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What is plainly stated in Scripture is that Christ first comes FOR His saints, and then He comes WITH His saints.  That does not happen at the same time or on the same day, since the Marriage of the Lamb takes place in between.

Please explain to me why going to the marriage supper of the Lamb precludes Christ coming for and with His saints from happening in the same day?  Don't you realize that at the resurrection / rapture that we will be immortal?  What is time to an immortal?

Time is nothing to an "immortal", but that's hardly the issue.  The Scriptures that we have do NOT make a mishmash of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ with His saints. The first appearing is "unto salvation" while the second appearing is "unto destruction" thus there is universal mourning. 

Everything has its time and place, but your imagined scenario would indicate that God is in some kind of hurry.  And you will not find the word "resurrection" in the Olivet Discourse, since the gathering of the elect there is the supernatural gathering of living and believing Jews from all over the world.  All the OT prophecies pertaining to this speak of those who are alive and and gathered to the land of Israel.

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What is plainly stated in Scripture is that Christ first comes FOR His saints, and then He comes WITH His saints.  That does not happen at the same time or on the same day, since the Marriage of the Lamb takes place in between.

Please explain to me why going to the marriage supper of the Lamb precludes Christ coming for and with His saints from happening in the same day?  Don't you realize that at the resurrection / rapture that we will be immortal?  What is time to an immortal?

Time is nothing to an "immortal", but that's hardly the issue.  The Scriptures that we have do NOT make a mishmash of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ with His saints. The first appearing is "unto salvation" while the second appearing is "unto destruction" thus there is universal mourning. 

Everything has its time and place, but your imagined scenario would indicate that God is in some kind of hurry.  And you will not find the word "resurrection" in the Olivet Discourse, since the gathering of the elect there is the supernatural gathering of living and believing Jews from all over the world.  All the OT prophecies pertaining to this speak of those who are alive and and gathered to the land of Israel.

The only way not to make a mishmash of Scripture is to read it literally.

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