Pope Francis: Revising the Ten Commandments

[Guest Thallasa]

 

They can say directly "JESUS IS LORD" ,  and they don't have a clue who Jesus is.  They are not allowed by rcc doctrines, published, to serve Jesus - they have to serve the pope and the hierarchy....

 

This just demonstrates how completely people do not understand what they criticize.

This is absolutely, utterly false.

 

 

While, I do think that it is possible for you to speak for yourself.  I would believe you if you said to me that you believed that Jesus is the son of God and he died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins.  However, I find it hard to believe that you are capable of speaking on behalf of the whole Catholic church.  I do not think it is possible for you to definitively say that the whole RCC believes the same as you do, which you continuously try to do.  It would be the same if I tried to speak on behalf of an entire denomination.  It is not something that is possible to do.  There will always be error within the church until the tares are separated from the wheat.  

 

I'm not speaking just for myself Esther when I speak about what the Catholic Church teaches or doesn't teach.  The Catholic Church is clear on what She teaches.   This is something I have studied in depth.  However, many people get it wrong.

Now when it comes to what individual Catholics believe, as I've said, cradle catholics are well known for not having been correctly taught the Catholic faith so I would not be surprised to hear all sorts of things, but I will say this.  I have never met a cradle Catholic who could not distinguish between worship due God alone and honor given to others. I have never met a cradle catholic who didn't believe Jesus was their savior.   

How well a person understands the Catholic faith is dependent on how well they were taught the Catholic faith.  As I've said before, from the middle of the last century, catechesis has not been very good.   I was not catechized in the Catholic Church.   I came to my understanding through in depth research.  I have been told by other Catholics who know their Catholic faith that I know it better than 99% of Catholics in the US, which is a very sad thing.

 

  THALLASA

 

I may no longer be practising as a catholic for many years ,but what SimpleJeff says, is pure falsity .

Whatever may be lacking in this Church The Love of Jesus and worship of Him as God is at the  center of of her beliefs  .Certainly some things have been added ,some of which were probably neccessary because of the times ,which should have faded away  in modern  times ,but the lies here amounts to False Witness .  Even when I disagree with someone ,do not like someone ,to lie about a person or a group on something as profound as this,, is a serious sin   It indicates hatred,, rather  than a need for truth in what they say .  Could you please Jeff stick to the truth in your criticisms as it makes people switch off 

 .

The quote feature is messed up, but I fixed it in this reply.

Thank you Thallasa for your kind words of wisdom.

 

 

Theresa as you will know the RCC says that only through her can we achieve salvation ,so in this she is entirely wrong ,and must withdraw this statement in my opinion ;When that is done many people will automatically stop fearing this organisation ,and accept that while it may not be their method of worshipping and practice with all it's extras ,that is is christian and leave the catholics to their way of worship .Until then you are saying that these people here and elsewhere are not christians ,have no chance of eternal life in heaven with their Saviour .Now if you do that and encourage people who are lax in that way to study more the bible ,we can all be friends ,with a different emphasis,but friends in Our Lord and saviour  .You see that the emphsis for change must be placed in your court as the Power thing comes from the RCC .Even Pope Francis knows this ,but after makng some worthy statements he is drifting into the old habits of popes to speak for  the christian world  .   Bad habits  die hard and create a bad taste . 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

TY s.  I really appreciate you answering my questions.

When did you first come to the realization that Catholics don't have faith in Jesus Christ?

 

When Catholics told me how they viewed salvation.

 

There's the problem right there Shiloh.

The source of your information.

 

You've formed your opinions of what the Catholic Church teaches from those unqualified to tell you what the Catholic Church teaches because they never properly understood what the Catholic Church teaches because they were never properly catechized in the Catholic Church.

I've explained how poorly catechized Catholics were since the middle of the last century to you before.

 

Until you are willing to throw out what you think you know about the Catholic Church and learn from someone who actually properly understands what the Catholic Church teaches, you will be forever trapped a false view of this alternate "Catholic Church" you've created for yourself.

 

 

Some Catholics get saved, but they have to leave the RCC to do it.  There are countless testimonies of Catholics who admit they were blinded to the truth about salvation.   Their former priests and Jesuits who have revealed what is really going on the higher levels of leadership in Rome and just how corrupt it really is.

And these so called  "countless testimonies" are those of the ill-informed, and unqualified to speak to what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

So all you have for the basis of your understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches is wrong, distorted information based on ill-informed testimonies.

 

So your criticisms are based on distorted and false information.

 

 

People should not criticize what they do not properly understand, and this is a subject you are demonstrating you do not properly understand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, you are the putting out lies and misinformation. All you have is lies and misinformation.  I have learned that you can't be trusted.    

 

I do love you Shiloh.   I hope one day you will be able to understand the sources of your information on Catholicism have lead you to build a fictional Catholic Church to attack. Cradle Catholics generally, and unfortunately, tend to be the worst source for correct information about what the Catholic Church teaches. If the Catholic Church were really how you believe it to be, I would hate it too and run faster from it than you could.

 

As has been wisely said:

 

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

― Fulton J. Sheen

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, I have been going off of what you have said, which is no different than the people whom you claim are not properly instructed about what Catholics believe.  You have been confirming, on this board, the very things you claim is misinformation.    You argue that faith alone is not all that is needed for salvation and you have argued that baptism and good works (purifying one's self) is also necessary for salvation.            

So you really talk out both sides of your mouth and are not to be trusted. You are a neo-pagan who simply converted to another form of paganism. 

I'm sorry Shiloh, but I have not shared enough with you for you to have enough information to go off of what I say.     

Until you're ready to actually listen rather than tell others what they mean by the words they use and say,and judge them according to some fictional construct, there is no way to help you see where you have been wrong.

 

 

You have shared enough for me to know that you don't believe the true Gospel of salvation by faith and you have shared enough for me to know that you believe works are part of what is required of salvation.   You have shared enough for me to know and affirm that Catholicism isn't Christianity and that Roman Catholics are not authentic followers of Jesus and that Roman Catholicism is of the devil and is the road to Hell. 

 

I think trashing the faith of others is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.    Please stop - not just towards me, but towards everyone else too.   

 

TY s.  I really appreciate you answering my questions.

When did you first come to the realization that Catholics don't have faith in Jesus Christ?

 

When Catholics told me how they viewed salvation.

 

There's the problem right there Shiloh.

The source of your information.

 

You've formed your opinions of what the Catholic Church teaches from those unqualified to tell you what the Catholic Church teaches because they never properly understood what the Catholic Church teaches because they were never properly catechized in the Catholic Church.

I've explained how poorly catechized Catholics were since the middle of the last century to you before.

 

Until you are willing to throw out what you think you know about the Catholic Church and learn from someone who actually properly understands what the Catholic Church teaches, you will be forever trapped a false view of this alternate "Catholic Church" you've created for yourself.

 

 

Some Catholics get saved, but they have to leave the RCC to do it.  There are countless testimonies of Catholics who admit they were blinded to the truth about salvation.   Their former priests and Jesuits who have revealed what is really going on the higher levels of leadership in Rome and just how corrupt it really is.

And these so called  "countless testimonies" are those of the ill-informed, and unqualified to speak to what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

So all you have for the basis of your understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches is wrong, distorted information based on ill-informed testimonies.

 

So your criticisms are based on distorted and false information.

 

 

People should not criticize what they do not properly understand, and this is a subject you are demonstrating you do not properly understand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, you are the putting out lies and misinformation. All you have is lies and misinformation.  I have learned that you can't be trusted.    

 

I do love you Shiloh.   I hope one day you will be able to understand the sources of your information on Catholicism have lead you to build a fictional Catholic Church to attack. Cradle Catholics generally, and unfortunately, tend to be the worst source for correct information about what the Catholic Church teaches. If the Catholic Church were really how you believe it to be, I would hate it too and run faster from it than you could.

 

As has been wisely said:

 

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

― Fulton J. Sheen

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, I have been going off of what you have said, which is no different than the people whom you claim are not properly instructed about what Catholics believe.  You have been confirming, on this board, the very things you claim is misinformation.    You argue that faith alone is not all that is needed for salvation and you have argued that baptism and good works (purifying one's self) is also necessary for salvation.            

So you really talk out both sides of your mouth and are not to be trusted. You are a neo-pagan who simply converted to another form of paganism. 

I'm sorry Shiloh, but I have not shared enough with you for you to have enough information to go off of what I say.     

Until you're ready to actually listen rather than tell others what they mean by the words they use and say,and judge them according to some fictional construct, there is no way to help you see where you have been wrong.

 

 

You have shared enough for me to know that you don't believe the true Gospel of salvation by faith and you have shared enough for me to know that you believe works are part of what is required of salvation.   You have shared enough for me to know and affirm that Catholicism isn't Christianity and that Roman Catholics are not authentic followers of Jesus and that Roman Catholicism is of the devil and is the road to Hell. 

 

I think trashing the faith of others is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.    Please stop - not just towards me, but towards everyone else too.   

I will not stop telling the truth about the lies and the murderous history of the RCC.  I stand behind everything I said. 

[thereselittleflower]

 

They can say directly "JESUS IS LORD" ,  and they don't have a clue who Jesus is.  They are not allowed by rcc doctrines, published, to serve Jesus - they have to serve the pope and the hierarchy....

 

This just demonstrates how completely people do not understand what they criticize.

This is absolutely, utterly false.

 

 

While, I do think that it is possible for you to speak for yourself.  I would believe you if you said to me that you believed that Jesus is the son of God and he died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins.  However, I find it hard to believe that you are capable of speaking on behalf of the whole Catholic church.  I do not think it is possible for you to definitively say that the whole RCC believes the same as you do, which you continuously try to do.  It would be the same if I tried to speak on behalf of an entire denomination.  It is not something that is possible to do.  There will always be error within the church until the tares are separated from the wheat.  

 

I'm not speaking just for myself Esther when I speak about what the Catholic Church teaches or doesn't teach.  The Catholic Church is clear on what She teaches.   This is something I have studied in depth.  However, many people get it wrong.

Now when it comes to what individual Catholics believe, as I've said, cradle catholics are well known for not having been correctly taught the Catholic faith so I would not be surprised to hear all sorts of things, but I will say this.  I have never met a cradle Catholic who could not distinguish between worship due God alone and honor given to others. I have never met a cradle catholic who didn't believe Jesus was their savior.   

How well a person understands the Catholic faith is dependent on how well they were taught the Catholic faith.  As I've said before, from the middle of the last century, catechesis has not been very good.   I was not catechized in the Catholic Church.   I came to my understanding through in depth research.  I have been told by other Catholics who know their Catholic faith that I know it better than 99% of Catholics in the US, which is a very sad thing.

 

  THALLASA

 

I may no longer be practising as a catholic for many years ,but what SimpleJeff says, is pure falsity .

Whatever may be lacking in this Church The Love of Jesus and worship of Him as God is at the  center of of her beliefs  .Certainly some things have been added ,some of which were probably neccessary because of the times ,which should have faded away  in modern  times ,but the lies here amounts to False Witness .  Even when I disagree with someone ,do not like someone ,to lie about a person or a group on something as profound as this,, is a serious sin   It indicates hatred,, rather  than a need for truth in what they say .  Could you please Jeff stick to the truth in your criticisms as it makes people switch off 

 .

The quote feature is messed up, but I fixed it in this reply.

Thank you Thallasa for your kind words of wisdom.

 

 

Theresa as you will know the RCC says that only through her can we achieve salvation ,so in this she is entirely wrong ,and must withdraw this statement in my opinion ;When that is done many people will automatically stop fearing this organisation ,and accept that while it may not be their method of worshipping and practice with all it's extras ,that is is christian and leave the catholics to their way of worship .Until then you are saying that these people here and elsewhere are not christians ,have no chance of eternal life in heaven with their Saviour .Now if you do that and encourage people who are lax in that way to study more the bible ,we can all be friends ,with a different emphasis,but friends in Our Lord and saviour  .You see that the emphsis for change must be placed in your court as the Power thing comes from the RCC .Even Pope Francis knows this ,but after makng some worthy statements he is drifting into the old habits of popes to speak for  the christian world  .   Bad habits  die hard and create a bad taste . 

I understand that given the way you understand this, it would be wrong.  If that's what it meant I would be in your camp.   

It would seem on the surface that the Catholic Church is saying anyone not a member of the Catholic Church is going to hell.  This is not what these words mean.  I hope I can explain it so it comes across correctly.    When the Catholic Church says there is no salvation outside the Church,  this does not mean one must be formally part of the Roman Catholic Church.    She recognizes that there are many not formally part of the Catholic Church that believers in Christ, and so are understood to be part of Her, joined to Her even if not as perfectly as She would wish..  It is in this light these words must be understood.   The Church is the body of Christ and all believers are included.

This is taught as explained in the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church):

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."³²² Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."³²³ With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."³²⁴

This is then followed by the section entitled  The Church and non-Christians     so most definitely believers not formally a part of the Roman Catholic Church are understood to be christians, or they would be under this section.    

So rather than this meaning believers not formally a part of the Roman Catholic Church are going to hell, it means quite the opposite.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[thereselittleflower]

Davida  do you pray for others and so act as as 'go between' between another and God?  

Why if God doesn't need you to?

 

Do others pray for you and so act as a 'go between' between you and God?

Why if God doesn't need them to?

 

Do you intercede for others?    

Why if God doesn't need you to?

 

Do others intercede for you?    

Why if God doesn't need them to?

 

May God have mercy.

 

 

[Guest Thallasa]

 

They can say directly "JESUS IS LORD" ,  and they don't have a clue who Jesus is.  They are not allowed by rcc doctrines, published, to serve Jesus - they have to serve the pope and the hierarchy....

 

This just demonstrates how completely people do not understand what they criticize.

This is absolutely, utterly false.

 

 

While, I do think that it is possible for you to speak for yourself.  I would believe you if you said to me that you believed that Jesus is the son of God and he died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins.  However, I find it hard to believe that you are capable of speaking on behalf of the whole Catholic church.  I do not think it is possible for you to definitively say that the whole RCC believes the same as you do, which you continuously try to do.  It would be the same if I tried to speak on behalf of an entire denomination.  It is not something that is possible to do.  There will always be error within the church until the tares are separated from the wheat.  

 

I'm not speaking just for myself Esther when I speak about what the Catholic Church teaches or doesn't teach.  The Catholic Church is clear on what She teaches.   This is something I have studied in depth.  However, many people get it wrong.

Now when it comes to what individual Catholics believe, as I've said, cradle catholics are well known for not having been correctly taught the Catholic faith so I would not be surprised to hear all sorts of things, but I will say this.  I have never met a cradle Catholic who could not distinguish between worship due God alone and honor given to others. I have never met a cradle catholic who didn't believe Jesus was their savior.   

How well a person understands the Catholic faith is dependent on how well they were taught the Catholic faith.  As I've said before, from the middle of the last century, catechesis has not been very good.   I was not catechized in the Catholic Church.   I came to my understanding through in depth research.  I have been told by other Catholics who know their Catholic faith that I know it better than 99% of Catholics in the US, which is a very sad thing.

 

  THALLASA

 

I may no longer be practising as a catholic for many years ,but what SimpleJeff says, is pure falsity .

Whatever may be lacking in this Church The Love of Jesus and worship of Him as God is at the  center of of her beliefs  .Certainly some things have been added ,some of which were probably neccessary because of the times ,which should have faded away  in modern  times ,but the lies here amounts to False Witness .  Even when I disagree with someone ,do not like someone ,to lie about a person or a group on something as profound as this,, is a serious sin   It indicates hatred,, rather  than a need for truth in what they say .  Could you please Jeff stick to the truth in your criticisms as it makes people switch off 

 .

The quote feature is messed up, but I fixed it in this reply.

Thank you Thallasa for your kind words of wisdom.

 

 

Theresa as you will know the RCC says that only through her can we achieve salvation ,so in this she is entirely wrong ,and must withdraw this statement in my opinion ;When that is done many people will automatically stop fearing this organisation ,and accept that while it may not be their method of worshipping and practice with all it's extras ,that is is christian and leave the catholics to their way of worship .Until then you are saying that these people here and elsewhere are not christians ,have no chance of eternal life in heaven with their Saviour .Now if you do that and encourage people who are lax in that way to study more the bible ,we can all be friends ,with a different emphasis,but friends in Our Lord and saviour  .You see that the emphsis for change must be placed in your court as the Power thing comes from the RCC .Even Pope Francis knows this ,but after makng some worthy statements he is drifting into the old habits of popes to speak for  the christian world  .   Bad habits  die hard and create a bad taste . 

I understand that given the way you understand this, it would be wrong.  If that's what it meant I would be in your camp.   

It would seem on the surface that the Catholic Church is saying anyone not a member of the Catholic Church is going to hell.  This is not what these words mean.  I hope I can explain it so it comes across correctly.    When the Catholic Church says there is no salvation outside the Church,  this does not mean one must be formally part of the Roman Catholic Church.    She recognizes that there are many not formally part of the Catholic Church that believers in Christ, and so are understood to be part of Her, joined to Her even if not as perfectly as She would wish..  It is in this light these words must be understood.   The Church is the body of Christ and all believers are included.

This is taught as explained in the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church):

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."³²² Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."³²³ With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."³²⁴

This is then followed by the section entitled  The Church and non-Christians     so most definitely believers not formally a part of the Roman Catholic Church are understood to be christians, or they would be under this section.    

So rather than this meaning believers not formally a part of the Roman Catholic Church are going to hell, it means quite the opposite.

 

 

 

 

Yes something very recent ,forced on her by clear evidence that she could not spin this lie any longer in the face of universal knowledge ,evidence that there were many saints outside the Church Forced on her by those who were catholic and christian whom she had to eventually listen too  as she was haemorrhaging  many of her most faithful and intelligent,as well as those who had been catholics for générations who outside of mass never prayed to God,to Jesus directly ,but to saints aof all sorts and eseemed perplexed at the idea .Unlike you I have real experience

of the Church in severl countries and have watched as they were forced to change to keep some of the newcomers

who came from protestant biblical backgrounds .It is you Theresa who is naive. Did you think I did not have the new catechism    ? You are a convert and like a lot of newly in love you see with rose coloured spectacles , and   much  of what the Church does, keeps a  lot of people from a personal relationship with Jesus, from personal prayer in their own private place : they have more a relationship with the institution of the Church etc than with their Creator .

[thereselittleflower]

 

They can say directly "JESUS IS LORD" ,  and they don't have a clue who Jesus is.  They are not allowed by rcc doctrines, published, to serve Jesus - they have to serve the pope and the hierarchy....

 

This just demonstrates how completely people do not understand what they criticize.

This is absolutely, utterly false.

 

 

While, I do think that it is possible for you to speak for yourself.  I would believe you if you said to me that you believed that Jesus is the son of God and he died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins.  However, I find it hard to believe that you are capable of speaking on behalf of the whole Catholic church.  I do not think it is possible for you to definitively say that the whole RCC believes the same as you do, which you continuously try to do.  It would be the same if I tried to speak on behalf of an entire denomination.  It is not something that is possible to do.  There will always be error within the church until the tares are separated from the wheat.  

 

I'm not speaking just for myself Esther when I speak about what the Catholic Church teaches or doesn't teach.  The Catholic Church is clear on what She teaches.   This is something I have studied in depth.  However, many people get it wrong.

Now when it comes to what individual Catholics believe, as I've said, cradle catholics are well known for not having been correctly taught the Catholic faith so I would not be surprised to hear all sorts of things, but I will say this.  I have never met a cradle Catholic who could not distinguish between worship due God alone and honor given to others. I have never met a cradle catholic who didn't believe Jesus was their savior.   

How well a person understands the Catholic faith is dependent on how well they were taught the Catholic faith.  As I've said before, from the middle of the last century, catechesis has not been very good.   I was not catechized in the Catholic Church.   I came to my understanding through in depth research.  I have been told by other Catholics who know their Catholic faith that I know it better than 99% of Catholics in the US, which is a very sad thing.

 

  THALLASA

 

I may no longer be practising as a catholic for many years ,but what SimpleJeff says, is pure falsity .

Whatever may be lacking in this Church The Love of Jesus and worship of Him as God is at the  center of of her beliefs  .Certainly some things have been added ,some of which were probably neccessary because of the times ,which should have faded away  in modern  times ,but the lies here amounts to False Witness .  Even when I disagree with someone ,do not like someone ,to lie about a person or a group on something as profound as this,, is a serious sin   It indicates hatred,, rather  than a need for truth in what they say .  Could you please Jeff stick to the truth in your criticisms as it makes people switch off 

 .

The quote feature is messed up, but I fixed it in this reply.

Thank you Thallasa for your kind words of wisdom.

 

 

Theresa as you will know the RCC says that only through her can we achieve salvation ,so in this she is entirely wrong ,and must withdraw this statement in my opinion ;When that is done many people will automatically stop fearing this organisation ,and accept that while it may not be their method of worshipping and practice with all it's extras ,that is is christian and leave the catholics to their way of worship .Until then you are saying that these people here and elsewhere are not christians ,have no chance of eternal life in heaven with their Saviour .Now if you do that and encourage people who are lax in that way to study more the bible ,we can all be friends ,with a different emphasis,but friends in Our Lord and saviour  .You see that the emphsis for change must be placed in your court as the Power thing comes from the RCC .Even Pope Francis knows this ,but after makng some worthy statements he is drifting into the old habits of popes to speak for  the christian world  .   Bad habits  die hard and create a bad taste . 

I understand that given the way you understand this, it would be wrong.  If that's what it meant I would be in your camp.   

It would seem on the surface that the Catholic Church is saying anyone not a member of the Catholic Church is going to hell.  This is not what these words mean.  I hope I can explain it so it comes across correctly.    When the Catholic Church says there is no salvation outside the Church,  this does not mean one must be formally part of the Roman Catholic Church.    She recognizes that there are many not formally part of the Catholic Church that believers in Christ, and so are understood to be part of Her, joined to Her even if not as perfectly as She would wish..  It is in this light these words must be understood.   The Church is the body of Christ and all believers are included.

This is taught as explained in the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church):

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."³²² Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."³²³ With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."³²⁴

This is then followed by the section entitled  The Church and non-Christians     so most definitely believers not formally a part of the Roman Catholic Church are understood to be christians, or they would be under this section.    

So rather than this meaning believers not formally a part of the Roman Catholic Church are going to hell, it means quite the opposite.

 

 

 

 

Yes something very recent ,forced on her by clear evidence that she could not spin this lie any longer in the face of universal knowledge ,evidence that there were many saints outside the Church Forced on her by those who were catholic and christian whom she had to eventually listen too  as she was haemorrhaging  many of her most faithful and intelligent,as well as those who had been catholics for générations who outside of mass never prayed to God,to Jesus directly ,but to saints aof all sorts and eseemed perplexed at the idea .Unlike you I have real experience

of the Church in severl countries and have watched as they were forced to change to keep some of the newcomers

who came from protestant biblical backgrounds .It is you Theresa who is naive. Did you think I did not have the new catechism    ? You are a convert and like a lot of newly in love you see with rose coloured spectacles , and   much  of what the Church does, keeps a  lot of people from a personal relationship with Jesus, from personal prayer in their own private place : they have more a relationship with the institution of the Church etc than with their Creator .

 

They can say directly "JESUS IS LORD" ,  and they don't have a clue who Jesus is.  They are not allowed by rcc doctrines, published, to serve Jesus - they have to serve the pope and the hierarchy....

 

This just demonstrates how completely people do not understand what they criticize.

This is absolutely, utterly false.

 

 

While, I do think that it is possible for you to speak for yourself.  I would believe you if you said to me that you believed that Jesus is the son of God and he died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins.  However, I find it hard to believe that you are capable of speaking on behalf of the whole Catholic church.  I do not think it is possible for you to definitively say that the whole RCC believes the same as you do, which you continuously try to do.  It would be the same if I tried to speak on behalf of an entire denomination.  It is not something that is possible to do.  There will always be error within the church until the tares are separated from the wheat.  

 

I'm not speaking just for myself Esther when I speak about what the Catholic Church teaches or doesn't teach.  The Catholic Church is clear on what She teaches.   This is something I have studied in depth.  However, many people get it wrong.

Now when it comes to what individual Catholics believe, as I've said, cradle catholics are well known for not having been correctly taught the Catholic faith so I would not be surprised to hear all sorts of things, but I will say this.  I have never met a cradle Catholic who could not distinguish between worship due God alone and honor given to others. I have never met a cradle catholic who didn't believe Jesus was their savior.   

How well a person understands the Catholic faith is dependent on how well they were taught the Catholic faith.  As I've said before, from the middle of the last century, catechesis has not been very good.   I was not catechized in the Catholic Church.   I came to my understanding through in depth research.  I have been told by other Catholics who know their Catholic faith that I know it better than 99% of Catholics in the US, which is a very sad thing.

 

  THALLASA

 

I may no longer be practising as a catholic for many years ,but what SimpleJeff says, is pure falsity .

Whatever may be lacking in this Church The Love of Jesus and worship of Him as God is at the  center of of her beliefs  .Certainly some things have been added ,some of which were probably neccessary because of the times ,which should have faded away  in modern  times ,but the lies here amounts to False Witness .  Even when I disagree with someone ,do not like someone ,to lie about a person or a group on something as profound as this,, is a serious sin   It indicates hatred,, rather  than a need for truth in what they say .  Could you please Jeff stick to the truth in your criticisms as it makes people switch off 

 .

The quote feature is messed up, but I fixed it in this reply.

Thank you Thallasa for your kind words of wisdom.

 

 

Theresa as you will know the RCC says that only through her can we achieve salvation ,so in this she is entirely wrong ,and must withdraw this statement in my opinion ;When that is done many people will automatically stop fearing this organisation ,and accept that while it may not be their method of worshipping and practice with all it's extras ,that is is christian and leave the catholics to their way of worship .Until then you are saying that these people here and elsewhere are not christians ,have no chance of eternal life in heaven with their Saviour .Now if you do that and encourage people who are lax in that way to study more the bible ,we can all be friends ,with a different emphasis,but friends in Our Lord and saviour  .You see that the emphsis for change must be placed in your court as the Power thing comes from the RCC .Even Pope Francis knows this ,but after makng some worthy statements he is drifting into the old habits of popes to speak for  the christian world  .   Bad habits  die hard and create a bad taste . 

I understand that given the way you understand this, it would be wrong.  If that's what it meant I would be in your camp.   

It would seem on the surface that the Catholic Church is saying anyone not a member of the Catholic Church is going to hell.  This is not what these words mean.  I hope I can explain it so it comes across correctly.    When the Catholic Church says there is no salvation outside the Church,  this does not mean one must be formally part of the Roman Catholic Church.    She recognizes that there are many not formally part of the Catholic Church that believers in Christ, and so are understood to be part of Her, joined to Her even if not as perfectly as She would wish..  It is in this light these words must be understood.   The Church is the body of Christ and all believers are included.

This is taught as explained in the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church):

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."³²² Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."³²³ With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."³²⁴

This is then followed by the section entitled  The Church and non-Christians     so most definitely believers not formally a part of the Roman Catholic Church are understood to be christians, or they would be under this section.    

So rather than this meaning believers not formally a part of the Roman Catholic Church are going to hell, it means quite the opposite.

 

 

 

 

Yes something very recent ,forced on her by clear evidence that she could not spin this lie any longer in the face of universal knowledge ,evidence that there were many saints outside the Church Forced on her by those who were catholic and christian whom she had to eventually listen too  as she was haemorrhaging  many of her most faithful and intelligent,as well as those who had been catholics for générations who outside of mass never prayed to God,to Jesus directly ,but to saints aof all sorts and eseemed perplexed at the idea .Unlike you I have real experience

of the Church in severl countries and have watched as they were forced to change to keep some of the newcomers

who came from protestant biblical backgrounds .It is you Theresa who is naive. Did you think I did not have the new catechism    ? You are a convert and like a lot of newly in love you see with rose coloured spectacles , and   much  of what the Church does, keeps a  lot of people from a personal relationship with Jesus, from personal prayer in their own private place : they have more a relationship with the institution of the Church etc than with their Creator .

There is nothing recent at all about that.   The paragraph references Lumen Gensium which references scripture Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8:15-16 and 26; Jn. 16:13.

From the ECF's:

Augustine

"God is not unjust, so as to deprive the just of the reward of justice, if the sacrament of the divinity and humanity of Christ was not announced to them."

Wherefore since we call Christ the Word [Logos] of God, through whom all things were made . . . under whose rule [was/is] every creature, spiritual and corporal . . . so those from the beginning of the human race, who believed in Him and understood Him somewhat [utcumque] and lived according to His precepts devoutly and justly, whenever and wherever they were, beyond doubt they were saved through Him.

Augustine, Epist. 102. 11-12. PL 33. 374. Cf #15; De Labriolle, p. 274.

 

We see in Pope Pius IX 

God . . . in His supreme goodness and clemency, by no means allows anyone to be punished with eternal punishments who does not have the guilt of voluntary fault. But it is also a Catholic dogma, that no one outside the Catholic Church can be saved, and that those who are contumacious against the authority of the same Church [and] definitions and who are obstinately [pertinaciter] separated from the unity of this Church and from the Roman Pontiff, successor of Peter, to whom the custody of the vineyard was entrusted by the Savior, cannot obtain eternal salvation

Now notice to someone who is not properly educated in the words and teachings of the Church this may appear to be contradictory.   

It's not.

Notice the word  "contumacious" - this is very important to understanding the Church's teaching on this matter.  It means:

con·tu·ma·cious

ˌkänt(y)o͝oˈmāSHəs/

adjective

LAWarchaic

 

1. (especially of a defendant's behavior) stubbornly or willfully disobedient to authority.

 

One has to know and understand what it is they are rejecting before they can be said to be stubbornly or willfully disobedient.  The Church does not teach that those who do not know the necessity of something are held accountable for it.

They do not have the guilt of voluntary fault.

Leonard Fenny held that those who failed to enter the Church formally, even without fault of their own,  could not attain salvation.   The Church spoke out against this claim in 1949 by order of Pope Pius XII.  The decree states:

It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a member of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be explicit . . . but when a man labors under invincible ignorance, God accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to conform his will to the will of God.

 

Pope Clement in 94 AD said:

Let us go through all generations, and learn that in generation and generation the Master has given a place of repentance to those willing to turn to Him. Noah preached repentance, and those who heard him were saved. Jonah preached repentance to the Ninivites; those who repented for their sins appeased God in praying, and received salvation, even though they were aliens [allotrioi] of God.

 

They did not formally belong to the People of God.

Justin Martyr wrote in his First Apology:

"Christ is the Logos [Divine Word] of whom the whole race of men partake. Those who lived according to Logos are Christians, even if they were considered atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus."

 

St Gregory of Nazianzus said of his father, who became a Bishop, at his funeral:

He was ours even before he was of our fold. His way of living made him such. For just as many of ours are not with us, whose life makes them other from our body [the Church], so many of those outside belong to us, who by their way of life anticipate the faith, and need [only ] the name, having the reality 

Pope Gregory said:

The passion of the Church began already with Abel, and there is one Church of the elect, of those who precede, and of those who follow. . . . They were, then, outside, but yet not divided from the holy Church, because in mind, in work, in preaching, they already held the sacraments of faith, and saw that loftiness of Holy Church. . . .

Idem, Homilies on Ezechiel 2. 3. 16. CC 142. p. 248

St Nilas wrote:

In every nation, the one who fears God and does justice is acceptable to Him. For it is clear that such a one is acceptable to God and is not to be cast aside, who at his own right time flees to the worship of the blessed knowledge of God. God will not allow him to die in ignorance, but will lead him to the truth, and will enlighten him with the light of knowledge, like Cornelius

Nilus, Epist. 1. 154, to Maximian. PG 79. 145

 

If the Church held this was true of those who had not heard of Christ and so were not formally joined to the Church, how much even more so for those who have heard but cannot see their way to formally joining the Church?     This is not some new invention.

You indicated you were once Catholic.  As I said before, catechism has been very poor since mid last century.   I have not found one ex catholic who has been able to properly explain the catholic faith to me.   I have not seen it in your words either. I'm sorry Thallasa, but what you're saying about what you know of the Catholic Church is distorted.    

If you watch what people do, rather than study and learn what the Church actually teaches, you aren't going to come away with a very good idea as to what the Catholic Church is at its heart.  You judge my conversion without even understanding it.  You should seek to get to know me much better than you do before you make such judgments. 

You are using some of the same arguments that atheists use to to reject christianty based on what they observe among protestant believers.     I think people should think about that a bit.

I have shown you the words of Pope Francis do not fit your idea of what he said.   If you truly understood the catechism you have in your possession, then you would have never used his words, which come after the catechism, to try to make him say something, which, according to the catechism and being consistent with it, he didn't actually say.

Now that I've shown you HIS words did not mean what you presumed them to mean, you are lashing out at me, telling me I am naive, etc.

No I am not naive my friend.  Rather than look at peccable and fallible people in the Church who often poorly live out the teaching of the Church, I've taken the time to actually study what the Church teaches and why. which is why I can answer your questions here.  If you have your eyes on the wrong target, you aren't going to see what you're aiming at and will miss.

I have found absolutely nothing in the Church, or what She does, that keeps me from a personal relationship with Christ.  I find everything the Church offers draws me into an ever closer personal relationship with Christ without fail.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1to3]

Davida  do you pray for others and so act as as 'go between' between another and God?  

Why if God doesn't need you to?

 

Do others pray for you and so act as a 'go between' between you and God?

Why if God doesn't need them to?

 

Do you intercede for others?    

Why if God doesn't need you to?

 

Do others intercede for you?    

Why if God doesn't need them to?

 

May God have mercy.

with all due friendship in Christ Jesus thereisalittleflower;

God does not need us to pray to dead people other than pray to Christ Jesus our Only intercessor,advocate and savior to God.

We who are alive on this world now, pray -speak to God about our concerns and for those of others who are alive as well as on this earth now.

In faith in Him alone we do this.

Praying for dead people to make intercession for us or for us to make intercession for dead people is nowhere to be found in the holy bible.

As a matter of scriptural reference, it is actually a sin to try and summon up dead people in any format.

Jeremiah  7:16

"As for you, do not pray for this people, and do not lift up cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with Me; for I do not hear you. 17"Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?

18 the children gather wood,, the fathers  kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make  cakes for the queen of heaven

and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.

 

Romans 8:34

33Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2015 by 1to3
spelling

[Steve_S]

This has long, long since run it's course. This thread is a pretty good example of how not to act. Locked.