Junipero Serra declared to be "a saint"

[thereselittleflower]

I personally don't understand the whole concept of canonization.  Serra was just a man and, as such, is no more exalted in the eyes of God than you or I. 

Cannonization doesn't exalt them higher than we are in the eyes of God.

Actually it does.  These saints enter into the Liturgy of the RCC and they can be prayed to. Check out the Catholic Encyclopedia for a detailed discussion.

That doesn't exalt them higher than we are in the eyes of God.

 

 

[other one]

this is a very interesting discussion.

[other one]

I personally don't understand the whole concept of canonization.  Serra was just a man and, as such, is no more exalted in the eyes of God than you or I. 

Cannonization doesn't exalt them higher than we are in the eyes of God.

Actually it does.  These saints enter into the Liturgy of the RCC and they can be prayed to. Check out the Catholic Encyclopedia for a detailed discussion.

 

That doesn't exalt them higher than we are in the eyes of God.

 

 

if they can then be prayed to I don't understand how you can say that.....     can we pray to anyone we think might have gone to heaven?

 

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

Good question other one. It's a question I wonder about as well. Who decides ( one earth ) which of the departed have gone to Heaven and can be prayed to ?

[ayin jade]

Have any of you ever heard of this man before his canonization?

I read a book about him decades ago. He is responsible for the mission system in california as a means of conquest. The mission system there was basically a genocide of indians. The spanish enslaved the indians within the missions, in the same way that military prisoners are kept in prison camps during war. Which resulted in killer diseases wiping out entire populations of indians. They have been so thoroughly wiped out that they are labeled mission indians because no one can tell what tribe they belong to any more. And this is the man the pope thinks deserves sainthood?

[missmuffet]

Question: "What is beatification and canonization and are they biblical?"

Answer: Beatification and canonization are acts of the Roman Catholic Church declaring that a deceased person led a holy life. People still living can then request the blessed (if beatified) or saint (if canonized) to intercede with God on their behalf. The blessed or saint is honored and revered due to their actions while living, but they are not worshiped as God is. Honors may include feasts and masses performed in their name, as well as images and relics displayed to inspire the worshipers.

Beatification is an administrative act whereby a nominee is authorized to have a “cultus” or a specific group of people who identify with, and request favors from, the beatified. The nominee can be a martyr killed in the service of Christ or a confessor. A confessor’s life and writings must be inspected for heroic virtue (bravery and distinction marked by godly motives and not human desire), sanctity, and adherence to Roman Catholic doctrine. The deceased confessor must also have had part in a verifiable miracle. The presence of an unauthorized cultus disqualifies both the martyr and confessor from consideration.

The formal process for confirmation has changed greatly in the last several hundred years. Originally, the church required fifty years between the time of the nominee’s death and the beginning of the investigation. This has been decreased to five years. After a long inquiry, the pope authorizes the beatification, the newly beatified person is labeled “blessed,” and people of the area identified with the beatified are allowed to perform limited actions in the blessed’s name.

Canonization is a decree announcing a person has qualified for sanctification. The decree publically declares the nominee is holy and in heaven with God. Where the veneration of the beatified is limited in scope, canonization binds the universal church to honor the saint. The qualifications include all those included in beatification plus another miracle occurring due to the intercession of the person, which is seen as God’s confirmation of the nominee’s sanctity. Additional honors include specific liturgies performed and churches dedicated in the saint’s name.

The core of beatification and canonization is in the belief that very good people of the church go straight to heaven, rule with Jesus, and intercede with God on behalf of the people on earth and in purgatory. James 5:16 is used to justify the practice: “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.” But nowhere does the Bible encourage seeking the attention or favor of those who have died, and praying to the dead is strictly forbidden. 

Beatification, singling someone out for special status among the deceased believers, is unbiblical. All believers, whether dead or alive, are called “saints” in Scripture (1 Corinthians 1:2; Acts 9:13, 32; Ephesians 4:12). All believers are equally holy and righteous, not by our own acts, but by virtue of the righteousness of Christ imputed to us at the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). All believers are equally precious in the sight of God and there is none who can boast of any special place before Him. Finally, developing a “cultus” (from which we get the word “cult”) around a deceased person to whom we offer prayers and petitions borders on necromancy, (consulting the dead) which is also strictly forbidden in Scripture (Deuteronomy 18:11).

Beatification and canonization are rites and traditions of the Roman Catholic Church and are based on a misunderstanding and/or misinterpretation of Scripture. Saints are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christians are saints—and at the same time are called to be saints. In Roman Catholic practice, the saints are revered, prayed to, and in some instances, worshipped (although this is vehemently denied by Catholics). In the Bible, saints are called to revere, worship, and pray to God alone.

http://www.gotquestions.org/beatification.html

Edited September 24, 2015 by bopeep1909

[other one]

Have any of you ever heard of this man before his canonization?

I read a book about him decades ago. He is responsible for the mission system in california as a means of conquest. The mission system there was basically a genocide of indians. The spanish enslaved the indians within the missions, in the same way that military prisoners are kept in prison camps during war. Which resulted in killer diseases wiping out entire populations of indians. They have been so thoroughly wiped out that they are labeled mission indians because no one can tell what tribe they belong to any more. And this is the man the pope thinks deserves sainthood?

Thanks Ayin,   I was just about to look him up for I had never heard of him.....    Interestingly we just got home from a trip to San Antonio where we toured the missions there and learned of this very behavior.    They did make it sound like they gave the Indians protection from the Comanches though instead of making them slaves.......     but I thought it odd that they would go out looking for more only when a bunch of them died.....   they needed just enough of the Indians to be able to furnish necessities for them it looks like.  I had not make that last leap to see that it was truly slave labor even there in Texas.  The short video's there made it sound like they were giving the Indians a safe place to live after becoming Christians.

So now I have to ask myself if there was forced conversion present there.

[ayin jade]

Have any of you ever heard of this man before his canonization?

I read a book about him decades ago. He is responsible for the mission system in california as a means of conquest. The mission system there was basically a genocide of indians. The spanish enslaved the indians within the missions, in the same way that military prisoners are kept in prison camps during war. Which resulted in killer diseases wiping out entire populations of indians. They have been so thoroughly wiped out that they are labeled mission indians because no one can tell what tribe they belong to any more. And this is the man the pope thinks deserves sainthood?

Thanks Ayin,   I was just about to look him up for I had never heard of him.....    Interestingly we just got home from a trip to San Antonio where we toured the missions there and learned of this very behavior.    They did make it sound like they gave the Indians protection from the Comanches though instead of making them slaves.......     but I thought it odd that they would go out looking for more only when a bunch of them died.....   they needed just enough of the Indians to be able to furnish necessities for them it looks like.  I had not make that last leap to see that it was truly slave labor even there in Texas.  The short video's there made it sound like they were giving the Indians a safe place to live after becoming Christians.

So now I have to ask myself if there was forced conversion present there.

Serra set up the california missions. In them, there was forced conversions. Anyone who tried to escape was killed too. It was really bad there. 

 

Arizona has a mission, one of only 3 missions set up in Arizona during that time period and the only one left standing. It was founded by father kino. At least he did not use forced conversions or imprison or enslave the indians. The mission is still an active one and quite frankly one of the most beautiful churches in the us of the spanish missions. If the pope insisted on having a us saint, at least he could have chosen someone like him instead of serra. 

 

In the end tho it doesnt matter I suppose. Sainthood as the catholics do it, is still wrong.

Edited September 24, 2015 by ayin jade

[ayin jade]

This explains briefly about the genocide of california indians.

http://www.pbs.org/indiancountry/history/calif.html

 

Interestingly, indians are protesting the canonization of serra.

 

http://www.democracynow.org/2015/9/23/native_groups_protest_pope_francis_canonization

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

Good question other one. It's a question I wonder about as well. Who decides ( one earth ) which of the departed have gone to Heaven and can be prayed to ?

This is the very point of the canonization. It's a declaration by the Pope that the person being canonized is in heaven and can be prayed to for their intersession.