Junipero Serra declared to be "a saint"

[missmuffet]

Good question other one. It's a question I wonder about as well. Who decides ( one earth ) which of the departed have gone to Heaven and can be prayed to ?

This is the very point of the canonization. It's a declaration by the Pope that the person being canonized is in heaven and can be prayed to for their intersession. 

Thanks. So the Pope can "declare" who is in Heaven. Can he also "declare" who is "not"? 

Maybe I am not understanding correctly, but scripture says;

John 3:13 - "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

 Interesting thought.We can never say for sure who is in heaven and who is not.We can say that from a person's actions we think they may have gone to heaven.

[thereselittleflower]

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/23/dismay-left-pope-francis-canonizes-father-california/

While the left wingers are unhappy about the "canonization" of Junipero Serra (see above) by Pope Francis, Christians need to ask themselves whether this idea of "canonization" has any validity whatsoever.  Every person who is saved by God's grace is a saint.

Do you know what cannonization means?

Yes. I do know what canonization means, and since you spelled it with two nns, perhaps you need to figure out what it means. Here's what the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia says:

Canonization in the Catholic Church is quite another thing. The Catholic Church canonizes or beatifies only those whose lives have been marked by the exercise of heroic virtue, and only after this has been proved by common repute for sanctity and by conclusive arguments. The chief difference, however, lies in the meaning of the term canonization, the Church seeing in the saints nothing more than friends and servants of God whose holy lives have made them worthy of His special love. She does not pretend to make gods (cf. Eusebius Emisenus, Serm. de S. Rom. M.; Augustine, City of God XXII.10; Cyrill. Alexandr., Contra Jul., lib. VI; Cyprian, De Exhortat. martyr.; Conc. Nic., II, act. 3).

God makes EVERY SINNER A SAINT by the gift of the Holy Spirit, when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  The Catholic Church makes a few individuals "saints" because they are deemed "worthy".  BIG DIFFERENCE.  If Junipero Serra was indeed saved by grace, then he was already a saint, but no more of a saint than any believer in Christ (Rom 1:7): To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The reason "to be" is in italics and in square brackets is because it was added by the translators. All the Christians in Rome were "CALLED SAINTS" by God, because they were already "BELOVED OF GOD".  So what we have in "canonization" is another example of false doctrine.

 

Ezra, is this what Worthy is about, spelling nazi's?

Again,  when I read what you have to say, I just have to shake my head and wonder how you come to the conclusions you do by what you quote and use as your source.

There is nothing in that source that says believers aren't saints.  We are called saints in scripture.   As you have quoted from the Catechism in the past, I will also to demonstrate the Catholic Church does not teach what you say or imply it does regarding "saints."    The Catholic Church, rather than deny that as you want to make it appear, actually says this:

II. THE CHURCH IS HOLY

823 "The Church . . . is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. This is because Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is hailed as 'alone holy,' loved the Church as his Bride, giving himself up for her so as to sanctify her; he joined her to himself as his body and endowed her with the gift of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God."²⁸⁹ The Church, then, is "the holy People of God,"²⁹⁰ and her members are called "saints."²⁹¹

 

This paragraph starts out with "The Church"    It then goes on to define what "The Church" is  "the holy People of God,"   and then once it does that, it states  

"and her members are called "saints."

 

and refers to  Acts 9:13; 1 Cor 6:1; 16:1.  to back up that statement.

This doesn't say a few of her members.  There is no exclusion of any of her members.

The Catholic Church obviously teaches the members of the Church, the holy People of God, are called "saints" without exception.

 

Your claim that 

 The Catholic Church makes a few individuals "saints" because they are deemed "worthy".

is totally false and without any merit.

 

Again, all we see here is a demonstrated complete, total failure to understand what the Catholic Church teaches and what She means by Her words, 

 

When the Pope designates someone in particular as a Saint in the process of canonization, and any disagreement over the doctrines of the communion of saints aside,  it simply means the people invovled have confirmed the saintly holy life of the individual, are assured this individual is indeed before the throne of God in heaven,  and offers their life as an example to be followed

It does NOT mean only those canonized by the Catholic Church are in heaven.  There are many, many more in heaven.  

These are the ones the Catholic Church has been able to determine from extensive investigation, are indeed  of that number AND can be held up as examples for us to follow.      The Church cannot investigate every one who has ever died.   It would be ridiculous to think this would be even remotely possible.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[thereselittleflower]

Good question other one. It's a question I wonder about as well. Who decides ( one earth ) which of the departed have gone to Heaven and can be prayed to ?

This is the very point of the canonization. It's a declaration by the Pope that the person being canonized is in heaven and can be prayed to for their intersession. 

Thanks. So the Pope can "declare" who is in Heaven. Can he also "declare" who is "not"? 

Maybe I am not understanding correctly, but scripture says;

John 3:13 - "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

No ATGNAT

That is not what this means.

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

Hey, I love you both! 

I would like to know what the thoughts are on this . I am just a man ( creation of God ), and can see fruits of the Spirit, but I am no judge of another's soul. 

[hmbld]

 

It does NOT mean only those canonized by the Catholic Church are in heaven.  There are many, many more in heaven.  

These are the ones the Catholic Church has been able to determine from extensive investigation, are indeed  of that number AND can be held up as examples for us to follow.      The Church cannot investigate every one who has ever died.   It would be ridiculous to think this would be even remotely possible.

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, so why should anyone care who the pope investigates?  Why call certain people saints?  Why hold anyone up to be an example to follow when clearly all we need is Jesus to follow?   I've been thinking all afternoon about your previous response to me, and the verses you quoted in no way can be inferred that we should canonize anyone, or the pope for that matter.  

 

Romans 13:7

Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor.

Please explain why we should spend so much time honoring the dead, praying to the dead, or praying to relics of the dead, and again, i believe the verses you used are being taken out of context.  You really see nothing wrong with attributing miracles to praying to relics of the dead?

[missmuffet]

It's not Biblical- no way around it.

You've got that right 

[thereselittleflower]

 

It does NOT mean only those canonized by the Catholic Church are in heaven.  There are many, many more in heaven.  

These are the ones the Catholic Church has been able to determine from extensive investigation, are indeed  of that number AND can be held up as examples for us to follow.      The Church cannot investigate every one who has ever died.   It would be ridiculous to think this would be even remotely possible.

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, so why should anyone care who the pope investigates?  Why call certain people saints?  Why hold anyone up to be an example to follow when clearly all we need is Jesus to follow?   I've been thinking all afternoon about your previous response to me, and the verses you quoted in no way can be inferred that we should canonize anyone, or the pope for that matter.  

 

Romans 13:7

Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor.

Please explain why we should spend so much time honoring the dead, praying to the dead, or praying to relics of the dead, and again, i believe the verses you used are being taken out of context.  You really see nothing wrong with attributing miracles to praying to relics of the dead?

Why call certain people saints?   To hold them up as examples of a holy life.     

Just because the Catholic Church has a formal process how does that negate that we should look to those who lived holy lives as examples to encourage us?

No one prays to relics of the dead my friend.  

And God is not the God of the dead but of the living.    Do Jesus' words not have any importance?

Mark 12

26"But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob '? 27"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."

Matthew 22:29, 32
Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Luke 20:38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

 

If they are alive to God why should they not be alive to us too?  

They are part of the same Body of Christ we are.  

The Body of Christ is not divided.

It is whole, one, complete and in communion with itself and the Head which is Christ.

 It is because of the Head, Christ, the rest of the body is in communion.

 

 

 

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hey, I love you both! 

I would like to know what the thoughts are on this . I am just a man ( creation of God ), and can see fruits of the Spirit, but I am no judge of another's soul. 

The Catholic Church cannot say who is not in heaven.    The Catholic Church cannot say who is in hell.

 

[ayin jade]

Therese wrote:

Why call certain people saints?   To hold them up as examples of a holy life.     

 

Serra is not a good example of a holy life. 

[thereselittleflower]

Therese wrote:

Why call certain people saints?   To hold them up as examples of a holy life.     

 

Serra is not a good example of a holy life. 

Why do you say that?