Things the Bible DOES say about the End Times

[missmuffet]

 

 

Quoting Ezra: " Rick,

Many of us believe as you do so hold fast to your beliefs.  Those who hold other views will never change them so we will always be at an impasse. They are still brothers and sisters in Christ -- simply misguided. "

LOL Ezra, How do you know two things:

1. Who is misguided

2. That people do not change and will always be at an impasse.

People do change, people here at worthy have changed. In fact, I am one of them. Perhaps those whoce philosphy is:

"Don't confuse me with facts, mymind is made up" will never change, and perhaps you believe people won't change, because that is your philosophy. I you so sure that people do not change? Makes evangelism rather a waist of time, don't you think. If the people of God cannot change,what chance does the unbeleiver have? Thankfully, you are not in control, God is!

I am very uncomfortable with the Preterist view.

[missmuffet]

I believe that Scripture states that the Rapture will occur prior to the Tribulation.

Rick,

Many of us believe as you do so hold fast to your beliefs.  Those who hold other views will never change them so we will always be at an impasse. They are still brothers and sisters in Christ -- simply misguided.

You can wish upon a star all you want but that will not affect the way that end time events unfold.  God is not persuaded by what we think will happen.  A better suggestion than leaning on a house of cards is to be ready, come what may.  Five were prepared.  Five were foolish.

Of course is not going to make the rapture happen as we want.That is why we have to wait and see what His plan is.

[Omegaman 3.0]

 

 

Quoting Ezra: " Rick,

Many of us believe as you do so hold fast to your beliefs.  Those who hold other views will never change them so we will always be at an impasse. They are still brothers and sisters in Christ -- simply misguided. "

LOL Ezra, How do you know two things:

1. Who is misguided

2. That people do not change and will always be at an impasse.

People do change, people here at worthy have changed. In fact, I am one of them. Perhaps those whoce philosphy is:

"Don't confuse me with facts, mymind is made up" will never change, and perhaps you believe people won't change, because that is your philosophy. I you so sure that people do not change? Makes evangelism rather a waist of time, don't you think. If the people of God cannot change,what chance does the unbeleiver have? Thankfully, you are not in control, God is!

I am very uncomfortable with the Preterist view.

I am not comfortable with preterism either.  However, Jesus did say in Matt 24, that the buildings of the temple would be raised to the ground, and in 70 A.D. they were.

You have probably noticed, that some prophecies in scripture seem to find a fulfilment, only later to realize that they are prefilments, type or examples of fulfilments yet to come. Perhaps some of the ideas in preterism are true, but not in the ultimate sense, but more as pointers to what is yet to happen. To be fair to preterists, while I think they lack imagination and sometimes maybe faith in prophecy as pertaining to future events, I do not see them adding things to scripture, that strike me like what pre-tribbers do, which is what makes be uncomfortable with pre-tribism.

[Guest]

Rick_Parker said:

"I believe that Scripture states that the Rapture will occur prior to the Tribulation."

My reply: A lot of sincere believers do also Rick, you are in good company. I jut would like to see a single one of them, show us where, in the Bible, that is stated! It used to be, I believed the Bible said that also, then I read it, and found it missing, so, I reluctantly had to alter my view. After coming to the conclusion, that the church would probably go through the tribulation, is hoped I was wrong, wanted the pre-trib rapturists to be correct. I no longer think that way. 

They way I look at that now, is that I see what Jesus did, in the garden, where asked if there was a way to be spared, but . . . He also tempered that desire, with a greater desire, that of God's will being done. I do not claim to be certain of what God's will is in the area, but it appears to me, that He intends for the church to go through the tribulation.

IF that is the case, then that is what I want, God's will. God can be greatly glorified, by the the willingness of those faithful to Him, to suffer for His sake, to be faithful, even while facing pain and death. I would not willingly choose, to deprive God of that glory. 

Additionally, trials and tribulations are tools the Lord used to perfect His people, why would I not want His church perfected? It is a great honor, to suffer for His sake, why would we reject such an honor?

Persecution also, tends to pull the weeds out of the church. Those who are pretenders or self deceived, will bail out and quit. Those who are truly the saints, will persevere to the end.

Noting that has been God's way all along, from Genesis through Revelation, in history, in the present, and in the future (apparently) that His righteous people followers suffer, why should I suppose that late in time, God will change His well established ways, and pick one narrow generation, to escape these things, when others, many more worthy, did not?

So, I no longer look for the easy way out. I hope, that by God's grace, I might be allowed to suffer for Him, and to have Him use me for His glory. Maybe that is just mebeing selfish, since Jesus said: "Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

Anyway, just some thoughts there Rick!

Oakwood said:

"I'm not sure that it does (it may or may not do), but either way the OP left that rather vague...... "there will be a time". Omegaman never claimed that all ten points were chronological although some are and generally they appear to be."

My reply: Thank you Oakwood, for taking the time to note carefully what I did, and did not say. I often, have to reply to posts because people fail to do that, and they respond to ideas I never posited. It is refreshing when people actually read what is actually said and respond to that, instead of creating (intentionally or not) straw man arguments. By the way, there was a link in that OP to my nutshell page, where I list basically these same points, with the verses that support them and some commentary as well, that probably makes if clearer what I see as the chronology of these things, but even there, I hope people notice what I am saying as well as what I am not saying. Thanks for participating.

 

Just so I don't have to repeat things, anyone who cares can read this and make up your own minds. I no longer debate this as it always ends badly, so this is the only reply you will get from me. GOD Bless!

[Ezra]

A better suggestion than leaning on a house of cards is to be ready, come what may.  Five were prepared.  Five were foolish.

No one who holds to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture fails to also preach that Christians must be ready AT ALL TIMES, and ALL THE TIME.  So to try and suggest that the Pre-Tribulationists do not believe in being ready is nonsensical.

[Ezra]

Makes evangelism rather a waist of time, don't you think.

If the people of God cannot change,what chance does the unbeleiver have? Thankfully, you are not in control, God is! [/quote]

Another straw-man. Evangelism is not eschatology.  And God's sovereignty was not even brought into the picture. Of course God is always in control, but if a mule is stubborn, he lets the mule stay stubborn although He does expose his stubbornness (Acts 7:51).

We are currently focused on eschatology, and from what I have seen and observed, those who commit themselves to a certain camp have no desire to move away from there.  Check out Preterist Hank Hanegraaff.  Maybe now he wants to be a partial Preterist since he knows that Preterism is mere fantasy.

[Omegaman 3.0]

 

A better suggestion than leaning on a house of cards is to be ready, come what may.  Five were prepared.  Five were foolish.

No one who holds to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture fails to also preach that Christians must be ready AT ALL TIMES, and ALL THE TIME.  So to try and suggest that the Pre-Tribulationists do not believe in being ready is nonsensical.

I agree, at least it is my experience, that pre-tribbers do say we must be ready. However, what they often mean by that is "We must be ready, because He could come at any moment", and idea not stated is scripture, but they think being ready implies that he could come at any moment. Context, however, is about living in a way that the believer will not be ashamed at his master's return, Some have gone as far as to say, that His imminent return, keeps the church on it's toes, that an imminent rapture motivates right living.

That idea, is a very sad one. For that to be the case would mean that believers only behave, because they do not want to get spanked, as if God does not know what they are doing unless He comes and catches them at it. True believers, followers, obey Jesus out of love and appreciation, not because of threats if a surprise return.

Now, if the pre-trib rapture was a motivator, then we would expect that pre-tribbers, or more precisely, those who believe that the rapture is imminent, would be more moral and upright, sold out to Jesus holy people, that those who do not believe in an any moment return. I see no evidence of that.

Now, in what way is a pre-tribber ready, if he knows he will be raptured before the tribulation? Will he be prepared physically (fit, healthy, stores of food or other survival thoughts) or spiritually ready to die for Jesus and suffer for Him? I am not saying that posties are doing much better there, but, maybe some are, who think out and consider the implications of such times. I know that is not your point though, so I will move along.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Rick_Parker said:

Just so I don't have to repeat things, anyone who cares can read this and make up your own minds. I no longer debate this as it always ends badly, so this is the only reply you will get from me. GOD Bless!

My reply: Sure, there is no need for debate, do what you think best God bless you too!

I did read you link though, and it is well written. However, it still does not make a scriptural case for pre-tribism. It is a mix of some scripture, with added interpreations, and some very clever, slippery arguments that almost go un-detected, if you are not watching for the false premises and definitions applied as if those definition have to be accepted, when they are not so stated in the Bible.

Here, on the forums, I seem to debate a lot, but I am no debater. I do not like public speaking, it fact, I am phobic about it.

However, that person would be fun to take on in a moderated debate, because if is chock full of weaknesses - it would be a fun challenge, is a sporting kind of way, but that would probably be a poor way to see it, so I repent!

I do not debate the topic here, because I expect anyone to change their mind. I debate, for the cause of those who have not decided to be locked into a way of thinking, that they may not be deceived by more pleasant scenarios. Not everything in the Bible is pleasant to our flesh, and many things grieve our spirits. However, deception is a hallmark of the end times, and so much of the Bible on the subject of the end times, is warnings not to be deceived. We avoid deception, by being familiar with scripture, using discernment, and carefully weighing what is says, in context, comparing scripture with scripture, as opposed to gathering to ourselves teachers who will feed us ear tickling doctrines.

So, as you said . . . "make up your own minds!"

[Guest shiloh357]

 

A better suggestion than leaning on a house of cards is to be ready, come what may.  Five were prepared.  Five were foolish.

No one who holds to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture fails to also preach that Christians must be ready AT ALL TIMES, and ALL THE TIME.  So to try and suggest that the Pre-Tribulationists do not believe in being ready is nonsensical.

I agree, at least it is my experience, that pre-tribbers do say we must be ready. However, what they often mean by that is "We must be ready, because He could come at any moment", and idea not stated is scripture, but they think being ready implies that he could come at any moment. Context, however, is about living in a way that the believer will not be ashamed at his master's return, Some have gone as far as to say, that His imminent return, keeps the church on it's toes, that an imminent rapture motivates right living.

That idea, is a very sad one. For that to be the case would mean that believers only behave, because they do not want to get spanked, as if God does not know what they are doing unless He comes and catches them at it. True believers, followers, obey Jesus out of love and appreciation, not because of threats if a surprise return.

Now, if the pre-trib rapture was a motivator, then we would expect that pre-tribbers, or more precisely, those who believe that the rapture is imminent, would be more moral and upright, sold out to Jesus holy people, that those who do not believe in an any moment return. I see no evidence of that.

Now, in what way is a pre-tribber ready, if he knows he will be raptured before the tribulation? Will he be prepared physically (fit, healthy, stores of food or other survival thoughts) or spiritually ready to die for Jesus and suffer for Him? I am not saying that posties are doing much better there, but, maybe some are, who think out and consider the implications of such times. I know that is not your point though, so I will move along.

Actually the Bible makes several connections between holy living and the return of Jesus.  The return of Jesus is presented by Paul, Peter and John in connection with holiness.   It's not the case that people are only living right because they don't want to be "spanked."   That is simply not the case at all, and I don't think Paul or John would agree with you about that.  I think it is just incorrect to argue that pre-tribbers have ulterior motives for living right.  Following the logic you offer, one could easily make that same accusation in connection with the Second Coming which is presented in connection with holiness.

[missmuffet]

 

A better suggestion than leaning on a house of cards is to be ready, come what may.  Five were prepared.  Five were foolish.

No one who holds to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture fails to also preach that Christians must be ready AT ALL TIMES, and ALL THE TIME.  So to try and suggest that the Pre-Tribulationists do not believe in being ready is nonsensical.

I agree, at least it is my experience, that pre-tribbers do say we must be ready. However, what they often mean by that is "We must be ready, because He could come at any moment", and idea not stated is scripture, but they think being ready implies that he could come at any moment. Context, however, is about living in a way that the believer will not be ashamed at his master's return, Some have gone as far as to say, that His imminent return, keeps the church on it's toes, that an imminent rapture motivates right living.

That idea, is a very sad one. For that to be the case would mean that believers only behave, because they do not want to get spanked, as if God does not know what they are doing unless He comes and catches them at it. True believers, followers, obey Jesus out of love and appreciation, not because of threats if a surprise return.

Now, if the pre-trib rapture was a motivator, then we would expect that pre-tribbers, or more precisely, those who believe that the rapture is imminent, would be more moral and upright, sold out to Jesus holy people, that those who do not believe in an any moment return. I see no evidence of that.

Now, in what way is a pre-tribber ready, if he knows he will be raptured before the tribulation? Will he be prepared physically (fit, healthy, stores of food or other survival thoughts) or spiritually ready to die for Jesus and suffer for Him? I am not saying that posties are doing much better there, but, maybe some are, who think out and consider the implications of such times. I know that is not your point though, so I will move along.

Actually the Bible makes several connections between holy living and the return of Jesus.  The return of Jesus is presented by Paul, Peter and John in connection with holiness.   It's not the case that people are only living right because they don't want to be "spanked."   That is simply not the case at all, and I don't think Paul or John would agree with you about that.  I think it is just incorrect to argue that pre-tribbers have ulterior motives for living right.  Following the logic you offer, one could easily make that same accusation in connection with the Second Coming which is presented in connection with holiness.

Since there will be an instant judgment after the rapture the Bema Seat of those in heaven I have always wondered if those who are Post trib are afraid of that judgment.