Third temple: mere possibility or concrete reality?

[Last Daze]

...while it may not be built per God's direct authorization, it will likely be referred to at the temple of God, at least by the Jews.  In the end times sense, I think "the temple of God" is more of a moniker than it is a statement of fact.

Who cares what the Jews would think about it. The question is what Paul, who wrote the phrase, would think about it. And I think that the answer to that is clear.

So where does the man of sin declare himself to be God?

on the western hill. 

inchrist, do you have scripture to back that up?

 Well, perhaps. I'm not dogmatic about it. But let me present and see what you think, please note it's a work in progress.

 

WilliamL has given his explanation on the words hieron and naos regarding its usage in the NT, which I think is correct. So I'm not going to go into to much detials on that, perhaps just expand on it.

As you know the children of Israel clearly were the people of God in the Biblical scriptures (e.g. Exodus 3:10) and built “the temple of God” (2 Chronicles 23:9) in Old Testament times, however I believe there has been a metamorphosis and that metamorphosis is into christianity. 

New Testament shows that God’s holy people are Christians made up of jews or gentiles now:

13 Jesus Christ…15 He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:13, 15-16)

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, (1 Peter 2:9)

We've seen the OT metamorphosize into the NT, we see the Judaism metamorphed into Judeo - christianity, we see God's holy people metamorphed and still in the process to Christianity, and most importantly to our topic I believe the Temple has metamorphed into the church and perhaps a particular church [ which I will explain below]

I say that because if you look at the topology of the two temples built, you'll notice with the first and second temple; God's glory came down on it, we see the the same thing on Pentecost, God's glory came down on the church.

If you notice with Paul he mainly used naos which has to do with Christians, and not a jewish temple. 

Remember Jesus also said that he will build something greater than the Jewish temple. 

Also notices the following statement from Jesus:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (Matthew 24:15)

 

In that verse, Jesus says that we should look at Daniel.  Jesus also taught that the one who reads this passage needs to understand   something—perhaps Jesus’ comment itself suggests that the apparent idea that a physical Jewish temple may be required may not be correct. 

Jesus is referring to either the area the temple was originally built at or to the city of Jerusalem.

The scriptures of Daniel are referring to  sacrifices, neither one of those passages says anything about a temple being built or involved.  

Infact I'll go one step further, if you notice in Daniel11:38 it's states the following:

But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces

In his estate could mean in his palace or tent that he will erect.

Which would fit with Daniel 11:45

He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain.

So what we have is a picture that it would appear the Antichrist magnifying himself in his palace or tent or whatever building he will pitch on a holy area.

 

The Western Hill

This is where we have the first christian church building. While its New Testament references are unverified, archeological evidence supports that it was originally likely built in the first century, and this very church that is still there could possibly be the church mentioned in Acts.

 

Archeologist also offer the fact that during the destruction of the Temple, this particular church was also destroyed when at that time the christians fled through Pella into transjordan and layer rebuilt when the christians came back.

 

Dr. Michael Germano a biblical archeologist states the following:

 

The ancient walls of the original structure consisted of worked limestone in a secondary use, laid in irregular courses of ashlars with chipped corners suggesting their origin was as salvage from a variety of destroyed buildings, such as those resulting from the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem, but absent any distinctive markings or stylistic features that would limit this secondary use to 1st–3rd century construction...

 

The architectural proportions of the original building appear to have been those of the Solomonic Temple with the height one ‐ half of the sum of the length and width...

 

The implication of these findings is that the original building was a relatively small Judeo ‐ Christian synagogue, with an interior hall of about 54.9 sq. meters, dating to the interim between the two Jewish wars with the Romans (70–130).

 

So the Antichrist may wish to demonstrate that he is above the faithful church, by placing something there (cf. Daniel 11:31; Matthew 24:15) and sitting in the area of the original Church on Jerusalem's Western Hill.

What about the animal sacrifices?  

I do learn towards Lastdaze interpretation that the sacrifices caused to end by Jesus himself. 

However historically and alternatively the Israelites for 3,000 years, offered animal sacrifices without a Jewish temple. (2 Samuel 24:25), as did Aaron and his descendants (Exodus 20:24; Leviticus 1:10-11).  And prior to all of that, Abel (Genesis 4:4), Noah (Genesis 8:20), Abraham (Genesis 22:9-13).

So I believe a jewish temple is certainly not needed to fulfill this prophecy.

This makes sense to me.  There will be a natural and a spiritual desolation (let the reader understand) when the abomination stands where it shouldn't be, the holy place.  Whether the "holy place" is a reference to an actual or perceived holy place such as the temple mount, a temple, a tabernacle, Jerusalem, etc. I'm not sure.  I think any could qualify.  What we know is that when the AoD is set up in the holy place, it leads to Israel's desolation.

• Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.  Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.  Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.  Matthew 24:15-18

When the Satan possessed false prophet fails at destroying Israel, he turns to persecute her offspring, the church.

• So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Revelation 12:17

The false prophet accomplishes this through the mark and the image of the beast.  He uses them to "ferret out" those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and the world becomes a much darker place largely desolate of truth, a spiritual desolation.

The persecution of Israel followed by the persecution of the church is what Jesus describes as a time of great tribulation and we would do well to be prepared for it.

•  For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Matthew 24:21

[WilliamL]

...while it may not be built per God's direct authorization, it will likely be referred to at the temple of God, at least by the Jews.  In the end times sense, I think "the temple of God" is more of a moniker than it is a statement of fact.

Who cares what the Jews would think about it. The question is what Paul, who wrote the phrase, would think about it. And I think that the answer to that is clear.

So where does the man of sin declare himself to be God?

Matt. 3:12 “His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Micah 4:12 But they do not know the thoughts of the LORD, Nor do they understand His counsel; For He will gather them like sheaves to the threshing floor.   1 Chr. 21:28 At that time, when David saw that the LORD had answered him on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite, he sacrificed there. 29 For the tabernacle of the LORD and the altar of the burnt offering, which Moses had made in the wilderness, were at that time at the high place in Gibeon. ...22:1 Then David said, “This, it is the house of the LORD God, and this is the altar of ascent offering for Israel.”   Note that David called the threshing floor "the house/temple of God" before any structure stood there at all. Likewise, in Daniel 9:17, the prophet called the same spot -- at the time a ruin because of Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of the Temple -- "your miqdash/holy place."    Neither Jesus in Matthew 24 nor Paul in 2 Thes. 2 use any term that must apply to a physical structure: they both use terms for a sanctified/holy place, period.

 

Such a Temple SHALL exist, based on the prophetic passages that foretell its existence. (Ironic, isn’t it? Shall the prophecy be fulfilled to create the event or is the event being created to fulfill the prophecy? “Chicken or egg?” Remember: Many times the Messiah said, “Suffer such-and-such to happen for thus it becometh us to fulfill all prophecy,” like at His baptism:)

There is no definitive biblical passage that speaks of a building on the Holy Place at the time of the Abomination of Desolation.

[Last Daze]

...while it may not be built per God's direct authorization, it will likely be referred to at the temple of God, at least by the Jews.  In the end times sense, I think "the temple of God" is more of a moniker than it is a statement of fact.

Who cares what the Jews would think about it. The question is what Paul, who wrote the phrase, would think about it. And I think that the answer to that is clear.

So where does the man of sin declare himself to be God?

Matt. 3:12 “His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Micah 4:12 But they do not know the thoughts of the LORD, Nor do they understand His counsel; For He will gather them like sheaves to the threshing floor.   1 Chr. 21:28 At that time, when David saw that the LORD had answered him on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite, he sacrificed there. 29 For the tabernacle of the LORD and the altar of the burnt offering, which Moses had made in the wilderness, were at that time at the high place in Gibeon. ...22:1 Then David said, “This, it is the house of the LORD God, and this is the altar of ascent offering for Israel.”   Note that David called the threshing floor "the house/temple of God" before any structure stood there at all. Likewise, in Daniel 9:17, the prophet called the same spot -- at the time a ruin because of Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of the Temple -- "your miqdash/holy place."    Neither Jesus in Matthew 24 nor Paul in 2 Thes. 2 use any term that must apply to a physical structure: they both use terms for a sanctified/holy place, period.

 

Such a Temple SHALL exist, based on the prophetic passages that foretell its existence. (Ironic, isn’t it? Shall the prophecy be fulfilled to create the event or is the event being created to fulfill the prophecy? “Chicken or egg?” Remember: Many times the Messiah said, “Suffer such-and-such to happen for thus it becometh us to fulfill all prophecy,” like at His baptism:)

There is no definitive biblical passage that speaks of a building on the Holy Place at the time of the Abomination of Desolation.

No worries as far as I'm concerned.  I'm not adamant one way or the other concerning the physical holy place where the man of sin stands.

[Ezra]

There is no definitive biblical passage that speaks of a building on the Holy Place at the time of the Abomination of Desolation.

There doesn't have to be.  That is why Jesus said "whoso readeth, let him understand".  In other words, God expects us to draw logical conclusions from His Word. If the Man of Sin sits in the Temple of God blaspheming God, it is understood and implied that there is a physical Temple.

[Last Daze]

 

There is no definitive biblical passage that speaks of a building on the Holy Place at the time of the Abomination of Desolation.

There doesn't have to be.  That is why Jesus said "whoso readeth, let him understand".  In other words, God expects us to draw logical conclusions from His Word. If the Man of Sin sits in the Temple of God blaspheming God, it is understood and implied that there is a physical Temple.

Appeals to "understanding" are calls to recognize the deeper spiritual meaning of something.  In this case it involves both natural Israel, and her spiritual offspring, the church.

[Montana Marv]

 

There is no definitive biblical passage that speaks of a building on the Holy Place at the time of the Abomination of Desolation.

There doesn't have to be.  That is why Jesus said "whoso readeth, let him understand".  In other words, God expects us to draw logical conclusions from His Word. If the Man of Sin sits in the Temple of God blaspheming God, it is understood and implied that there is a physical Temple.

Appeals to "understanding" are calls to recognize the deeper spiritual meaning of something.  In this case it involves both natural Israel, and her spiritual offspring, the church.

Last Daze

We are not the Spiritual offspring of Israel.  We are a vine off the branch which is Christ (both Jew and Gentile, indwelt by the Holy Spirit).  We are by Faith the Spiritual offspring of Abraham.  Israel will someday be again a Spiritual offspring of Abraham.  Abraham was not Jewish.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[*Zion*]

Abraham is called a Hebrew in the Bible.  How is he not Jewish????

[WilliamL]

 

There is no definitive biblical passage that speaks of a building on the Holy Place at the time of the Abomination of Desolation.

There doesn't have to be.  That is why Jesus said "whoso readeth, let him understand".  In other words, God expects us to draw logical conclusions from His Word. If the Man of Sin sits in the Temple of God blaspheming God, it is understood and implied that there is a physical Temple.

Who can debate with one who is deaf? The whole point of the debate has been that the word Temple that you use for this passage is an English mistranslation of the Greek word naos, a term that speaks primarily of a place, not a physical structure. As long as you ignore this fact, you ignore reality, and teach unsubstantiated dogma as fact.

Old lawyer maxim: When the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When the law is on your side, argue the law. When neither the facts nor the law are on your side, just argue.

[Last Daze]

 

There is no definitive biblical passage that speaks of a building on the Holy Place at the time of the Abomination of Desolation.

There doesn't have to be.  That is why Jesus said "whoso readeth, let him understand".  In other words, God expects us to draw logical conclusions from His Word. If the Man of Sin sits in the Temple of God blaspheming God, it is understood and implied that there is a physical Temple.

Appeals to "understanding" are calls to recognize the deeper spiritual meaning of something.  In this case it involves both natural Israel, and her spiritual offspring, the church.

Last Daze

We are not the Spiritual offspring of Israel.  We are a vine off the branch which is Christ (both Jew and Gentile, indwelt by the Holy Spirit).  We are by Faith the Spiritual offspring of Abraham.  Israel will someday be again a Spiritual offspring of Abraham.  Abraham was not Jewish.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I may not have used the most accurate of terminology but I was referring to this passage:

• For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.  But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel.  Romans 9:3-6

Combined with:

• Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.  Galatians 3:16

Abraham's seed is a reference to Christ.  Christ is from Paul's kinsmen, the Israelites.  The flesh offspring of Israel is the Christ.  The spiritual offspring of Israel (through Christ) is the body of Christ.

 

[WilliamL]

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Let me more fully explain why I stand so strongly against the doctrine that says there must be a 3rd Temple built before the Abomination of Desolation can take place. Jesus told us in Matt. 24:15-16,

“When you see the abomination of desolation...then let those who are in Judea flee...” This time of flight to escape is also prophesied in Dan. 12:1 and Rev. 12:6ff., and refers to a flight of God's people besides those just in Judea.

People who have been taught to believe that a Temple must be built first, before they will ever need to escape, will be caught with their pants down if in fact the AD is set up on the “Holy Place” before any Temple is built. And those who have taught them to believe that the Temple is a necessity will be culpable for deceiving their brethren into a false sense of security, with its contingent undue suffering.

As a side note, remember that Jesus specifically said, “When you see the Abomination of Desolation...standing in the Holy Place.” When the Temple was standing, the Holy Place was only accessible to the priests, not the common people: they were not allowed to see into it. So strictly speaking, what Jesus said would indicate that there would not be a building over the Holy Place/miqdash at the time of the AD.