DID YOU CHOOSE GOD ! ,OR DID HE ALREADY CHOOSED YOU ?

[OakWood]

8 hours ago, hmbld said:

23 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

First of all, I am not ignoring the Scripture.   How do we reconcile Gen. 6:6 which says God repented with Numb. 23:19, I Sam. 15:29, Jer. 4:28 and Psa. 132:11, all of  which say that God doesn't repent or change his mind?  The answer is in how the word repent is meant to be understood in Gen. 6:6.  

The word "atonement"  is a word that can refer to consecration, even though our most common understanding is that it refers to the expiation/covering of moral sin.   when you make "atonement" for an inanimate object and in some cases, for people, it also carries the dimension of consecration of that object or person.

I believe the same thing is in play, here in Gen. 6:6.   It doesn't mean repent in the sense of saying that God admitted that making man was a mistake.  God cannot commit error, so that cannot be the correct understanding of Gen. 6:6.   God is infallible and nothing he has ever done was the wrong thing to do.  That is a cornerstone of sound Christian theology.    That God is repenting in the sense that he is admitting error can ruled out and must be ruled out.

The word for repent is being used in a way that is augmented by the word grieved.  Hebraic patterns are reflected in the text where a word is followed by another word to define or clarify what was said previously.   It doesn't say the Lord repented.  It says, "it repented the Lord"   It's a word that used as a verb is the same as "grieved.  It literally means that God sighed a  deep sigh.   It doesn't necessarily mean, "Sorry, I made a mistake." 

As for the time I agreed with you before, that was a different topic and a different context and totally different subject matter.   In fact, I find you to be in contradiction with what you said before, in that now you claim God doesn't know the future because the future doesn't exist.   

I said the following in that response:

 

You were saying something then that looks to be the opposite of what you're saying now.   So yes, it is YOUR theology that is a mess, not mine. 

 

No, I'm saying exactly what I said before but you're not reading me right. I have NOT contradicted myself at all. I even remembered the topic, so I'm perfectly aware of what I believed then and it's the same as now.

So why would God give a sigh? Surely everything is going to plan, so why bother to sigh? Why was God grieved by this? Didn't he see it coming?

You can't just change scripture to suit your own theology. So when Jesus tells us to repent, he means that we didn't make any mistakes at all, but we just sigh and say "oh well."

As for the verses you have given. They mean that God should not repent (unlike mankind) because he has nothing to repent for, because he commits no sin. It doesn't literally mean that he is incapable of repenting. Genesis made it very clear that he did repent on at least one occasion, but he is not going to have to repent like humans will have to because he has done no wrong (unlike humans). I think that's pretty clear from the context in which these verses are being used.

In Jeremiah 4:28 God is saying that he plans to do something and he's not going back on it. Besides, once he's told us what he is going to do he has to stick to it because he doesn't break his promises.

Just because God is not going to repent for a particular thing does not mean that he is incapable of regret. Quite the opposite in fact, in the case of Jeremiah 4:28. Why bother to tell us that he won't repent or change his mind if he he is incapable of doing so anyway? He is giving a warning. He's basically saying "I'm going to do this, and if you think I'm going to change my mind you've got another think coming."  Exactly the same with Psalm 132:11. he is giving reassurance that he will not break his promise.

That's how we know that we can trust God because he always keeps his promises. He is completely trustworthy and will never lie to us or stab us in the back. It does not mean that he is incapable of ever regretting something that he has done!

 

[Guest shiloh357]

13 minutes ago, OakWood said:

No, I'm saying exactly what I said before but you're not reading me right. I have NOT contradicted myself at all. I even remembered the topic, so I'm perfectly aware of what I believed then and it's the same as now.

So why would God give a sigh? Surely everything is going to plan, so why bother to sigh? Why was God grieved by this? Didn't he see it coming?

You can't just change scripture to suit your own theology. So when Jesus tells us to repent, he means that we didn't make any mistakes at all, but we just sigh and say "oh well."

No, I quoted what I said in light of what you said and you agreed with me then.   But now you are saying something different.  Back then you agreed that God created the future, now you are saying he didn't.

Yes, God gave a sigh, not because HE did anything wrong or made a mistake but it was an expression of grief, as clarified in the last half of the verse. 

Yes, we are called to repent, but the word has a different usage when applied to us and how we are to turn from sin.  When applied to humans repenting of sin, it means to turn 180 degrees, go in the opposite direction.  You CANNOT project that usage on  to God.   -

You are very challenged when it comes to understanding context how words are used in different contexts. Apparently the importance of word usage over and above word meaning is lost on you.  NO competent theologian would ever agree with your proposal that God actually admitted to making an error in creating man. 

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As for the verses you have given. They mean that God should not repent (unlike mankind) because he has nothing to repent for, because he commits no sin. It doesn't literally mean that he is incapable of repenting. Genesis made it very clear that he did repent on at least one occasion, but he is not going to have to repent like humans will have to because he has done no wrong (unlike humans). I think that's pretty clear from the context in which these verses are being used.

But you are arguing that God's act of repentance is evidence that he made a mistake (not necessarily a sin) when he created man, which is theologically erroneous.  It is denying God's infallibility which puts you at odds with Scripture.

Numb. 23:11 is not about God not repenting of sin.  That's not what the verse says.  It says that God doesn't repent from what He says he will do.   The clear implication is that God knows what he will do, will not change it and will not be sorry for it later.   God is all-knowing and what he will do is perfect and wholly righteous and will not be a mistake.  He does not repent, ever.   It is different use of the term than what we see in Gen. 6:6.

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In Jeremiah 4:28 God is saying that he plans to do something and he's not going back on it. Besides, once he's told us what he is going to do he has to stick to it because he doesn't break his promises.

Yes, and since God knows the future completely, 100% in all things, God will no reason later to say, "wow, I really messed up on that, I am sorry I did that; that was a mistake."  

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Just because God is not going to repent for a particular thing does not mean that he is incapable of regret.

He doesn't "regret" anything, at least not in the way we experience regret.   Our problem is that we want to project our experience of a certain feeling on to God.   God hates liars, but God's expression of hate is not like our carnal expression.   Same with regret.   When the Bible uses anthropomorphisms, saying that God changed his mind or something like that, it is an attempt to express what God is feeling in terms we can understand.  Things like God sitting on  throne or Jesus sitting at God's right hand are all anthropomorphisms used to communicate to us something we could not understand at all, otherwise.
 

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Quite the opposite in fact, in the case of Jeremiah 4:28. Why bother to tell us that he won't repent or change his mind if he he is incapable of doing so anyway? He is giving a warning. He's basically saying "I'm going to do this, and if you think I'm going to change my mind you've got another think coming."  Exactly the same with Psalm 132:11. he is giving reassurance that he will not break his promise.

 

And since God is all-knowing, he is never going to truly  regret keeping those promises.  The only reason he would truly regret something he has done is if it were a mistake.

 

[hmbld]

Surely God makes no mistakes. 

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

4 minutes ago, hmbld said:

Surely God makes no mistakes. 

I would never accept that teaching...a bumbling God who says " oops ". 

[MorningGlory]

1 hour ago, AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken said:

I would never accept that teaching...a bumbling God who says " oops ". 

Nor would I, ATGNAT.  God is perfect in all His ways and doesn't make mistakes. 

[other one]

1 hour ago, AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken said:

I would never accept that teaching...a bumbling God who says " oops ". 

Ah, but he can fix his oops.....

[Guest shiloh357]

3 hours ago, other one said:

Ah, but he can fix his oops.....

Nonsense.  God doesn't "oops"  in the first place.   If God is every error, mankind is doomed.

[ghtan]

17 hours ago, Kan said:

Good question, that can be the topic we are looking for to illustrate the whole thing.

I am already in conversation with Shiloh on this. You are most welcome to join in.

[ghtan]

16 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I am going off of the Greek, not the NJKV.   If you want to argue that NKJV is an inspired transalation, go for it.   But the ESV is as much a formal translation as the NKJV. 

The New American Standard Bible, which is considered by scholars to be the most accurate of the modern translations agrees with the ESV

 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; (Acts. 1:6-7, NASB)

You are letting your theology drive your interpretation and you hang your hat on NKJV because it words it the way you need it worded to make your case, but the Greek simply doesn't support the notion that fixed is not a correct English word to put in that text.   The word in Greek, in this context, can be rendered, "fixed, placed, established, set, all of which are synonymous.   So really don't have a case to make.

So I am right - this is the only text you have to support your case! Well then the choice before us is either:

A. We insist the date of Jesus' return was already fixed in Mk 13:32 even though that compromises Jesus' deity for not knowing something that God should know, and it also makes him contradict himself because both in John 5:20 and 16:15 he indicated he knew everything God knew.

Or:

B. Believe that the date is one of those things God had not fixed - since you admit God has not fixed all future events - and accept the NKJV reading of Acts 1:7, thus upholding Jesus' deity.

Which is the better option? I think it is a no-brainer.

(Btw, the NKJV reading is also reflected in the Douay Rheims bible and the Darby bible, among others. Those are also quite literal translations.)

 

 

 

[ghtan]

17 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

When I say that not every event in the future is fixed, I am saying that God does not micromanage everything we say, do and think.   God doesn't hasn't predetermined what you will have for breakfast.  I am not a hard determinist.   The book of Revelation shows us that the events God has spoken of are fixed events and God is sovereignly bringing the world to the end that he has planned for it.

Acts. 1:6-7 clearly tell us that the events of the end times are fixed and one must commit intellectual suicide to say otherwise.    God always operates in the fullness of time.  Jesus, according to the NT was born in the fullness of time.   In fact, Jesus was born at the perfect time in history.   It didn't just happen.   God is sovereign over history and over the future. 

If God has no fixed date for what he has planned, if it all just comes together and God is just a pleasantly surprised as we are, then he is not sovereign.   If God doesn't really know how things are going to go in the future, then he is not sovereign.   And none of us want a God who is not sovereign managing our salvation.

Who are we to tell God what he should or should not fix? If God wants to leave a major event open, that is his prerogative. In the case of Acts 1:6-7, I have covered that in a separate post.

But I do agree with you that God does not let things just come together on their own. He does have targets but his targets need not always be dates. In the case of Jesus' return, he has another type of target in mind. It is when "the full number of Gentiles has come in" (Rom. 11:25). God wants the number of Gentile believers to reach a certain number and then he will turn back to the Jews and bring history to a close.

WHEN that target is reached depends on us. That is why no date is fixed for Jesus' return. Hence Peter can tell his readers to "hasten the coming of the day of God" (2 Peter 3:12). You cannot hasten Jesus' return if the date is already fixed!!

But the good news implied therein is that it means God has not predetermined who will be saved. It means EVERYONE has a chance to be saved! God is merciful!