The Time of Testing

[WilliamL]

10 hours ago, Ezra said:

 

But He did not say "You will be subjected to God's wrath".  Quite the opposite. Study the Tribulation carefully. It is a period of wrath and judgement on the unbelieving world.  Go through Revelation chapters 6-18, and you won't find the word "church" or "churches", while you see all the judgements described.

Rev. 7:14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

This is the last verse in Revelation that uses the word tribulation; which verse closely follows Rev. 6:17, which says, "The great day of His wrath is come..."

Go through Revelation chapters 8-18 and you won't find the word tribulation, because this is the period of God's wrath; which wrath immediately follows the tribulation.

There is no scripture whatsoever that says that God will bring the Great Tribulation, while scriptures do say that he will bring the wrath. They are not the same.

[Last Daze]

12 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

okay ,I have read all that you wrote, and you are convinced that you will not enter into tribulation, all these verses , are placed after the tribulation and cannot be before, you see that like many people also say the church is not in revelation after the 3rd chapter, and john was in the spirit so the church is not here, this is a wishful and bad assumption to make a wrong a right,

I appreciate your post, but the facts are the facts, Jesus said you will have tribulation and will be killed for his name sake,

simple jeff just shared how in Africa , and china, they are killing Christians, like nothing for what they believe in, does a African in Africa , different from you and me in the states ? if you think so , because tribulation has not knocked at your door yet, then you have been deceived to believe the lie,

planted in the Christian churches to believe we get a free pass out ,and because , God loves us , so we don't face anything bad or evil, we are just untouchable, are you really able to except that?

okay , so you hang on this scripture, that cannot be compared to another of its own to verify, a fact,

you must believe in the left behind movie also,

if we did not be subjected, to any tribulation, do you think this is what the bible tells you?

then you are following a different Jesus , for by the words of His mouth, we are told the way is narrow and only a few enter in.

we go through tribulation. proven when Jesus said when you see this things spoken of by  Daniel, let them not go back in, but flee.

the abomination of desolation, so there is no way , we are gone, in revelation satan was given 42 months

,allowed to overcome the saints, who are the saints ? for if God does not inter in to protect , no flesh would survive.

this is the wings to carry to safety,

lot was saved through the tribulation, noah was saved through the tribulation, the people of came out of Egypt through the tribulation

matthew 24 states after the tribulation He will return.

this is biblical, truth, in context and in  the pattern we are taught ,this leaves no doubt, we are told this flows inline with scripture.

You are correct to see through the volumes of misapplied passages, made up stuff, confusing terminology, etc. and stick with what the scriptures plainly state.  It doesn't matter if someone can stack wood, hay, and stubble to the sky, the fires of reality will reduce it to meaningless ash.

You would think that if pre-tribbers really wanted to know the timing of the rapture, they would start with the two passages that describe it.  Those two passages state that the rapture happens:

• at the last trumpet, which is God's trumpet
• after the resurrection

I have yet to see a scripturally supported view of what God's trumpet is or when the last trumpet sounds or when the resurrection happens that supports a pre-trib view.  Why don't they focus on the timing of those events since they are tied directly to the timing of rapture?  I'll even help.  Jesus states in John 6 that the resurrection of those who believe in Him will happen on the last day.

Reality cares not for theory.  Stick with the truth of what's plainly stated and be prepared to go through the great tribulation. 

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Ezra said:

 

But He did not say "You will be subjected to God's wrath".  Quite the opposite. Study the Tribulation carefully. It is a period of wrath and judgement on the unbelieving world.  Go through Revelation chapters 6-18, and you won't find the word "church" or "churches", while you see all the judgements described.

Don't you remember that the rapture is pictured in Revelation 14 as the first of two reapings?  That's the church right there.  Or was that an inconvenient truth that was quickly forgotten?  And what about those who hold to the testimony of Jesus, the saints?   Your argument is based on the absence of a term and confusing terminology?

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

There is no scripture whatsoever that says that God will bring the Great Tribulation, while scriptures do say that he will bring the wrath. They are not the same.

Please read Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 to see that God will indeed bring Great Tribulation, and it is literally called The Tribulation, the Great in Rev 7:14.

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

Please read Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 to see that God will indeed bring Great Tribulation, and it is literally called The Tribulation, the Great in Rev 7:14.

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

Like I said, "There is no scripture whatsoever that says that God will bring the Great Tribulation, while scriptures do say that he will bring the wrath." As you should be able to see, nothing in these two verses says that God will be causing either the Great Tribulation or what is the same, the time of trouble such as never was. However, you seem to be able to see something in these passages that is not there, because that is what your doctrine has told you to see.

Compare the above to the following, and the contrast is clear:

Rev. 6:17 "...the great day of His [God's] wrath is come..."

 

[Guest]

20 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The above sentence is your first in the defense of pre-trib, and it is false. Why read any more?

Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks have been determined 'al /upon your people and 'al /upon your holy city...

Daniel 9:24 says nothing about the need "for Israel to accomplish 6 things." It says that those things have been determined to come upon Israel regardless of what Israel does. If you cannot understand the difference between being the receiver of the action rather than the accomplisher of the action, then this shows you are willing to put your spin on any verse.

I rest my case.

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

6 minutes ago, Rick_Parker said:

I rest my case.

So, does Perry Mason present his now, or is the jury out ? LOL, sorry - carry on.

[Montana Marv]

22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The above sentence is your first in the defense of pre-trib, and it is false. Why read any more?

Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks have been determined 'al /upon your people and 'al /upon your holy city...

Daniel 9:24 says nothing about the need "for Israel to accomplish 6 things." It says that those things have been determined to come upon Israel regardless of what Israel does. If you cannot understand the difference between being the receiver of the action rather than the accomplisher of the action, then this shows you are willing to put your spin on any verse.

Willaim

So have these six things come upon Israel as written as you say..  If not, the 70th Week is still future.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[WilliamL]

On 12/12/2015, 7:21:48, Omegaman 3.0 said:

... Really? Christians during the Tribulation? Who knew?

Of course, if that wasn't clear enough, Revelation repeats itself on this point, in Chapter 20:

 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

What an amazing book, and the things it reveals.

Consider that in chapter 20, we see the souls of those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus. Christians? They did not worship the beast or take his mark. That places it in the tribulation. Then, they come to life to reign with Christ for 1000 years. If that does not speak to Christians in the tribulation, dying, and coming to life in a premillennial scenario, I don't know what else could be said. ...

While I agree with the vast majority of your post, which covered many scriptures, in this I have to disagree. The words in bold are not necessarily true just according to basic logic, because there is nothing in the Word that says no people will be saved after the Trib. Quite the contrary, in fact:

Zech. 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

These Jews are clearly repenting for their rejection of Jesus as their Messiah: therefore, this indicates their coming to faith in him. Rev. 1:7 tells us when this event will take place:

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

And this event is clearly post-Trib, as the following verses show:

Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." = the Rapture

In summary: 1) Christ comes in the clouds to take up his elect, 2) every eye sees him, including the Jews, who then repent for rejecting him, 3) the Rapture takes place. It is only logical to expect that others besides Jews will also come to believe in Jesus at this instant.

These new believers, however, will not be taken up with "those who were ready" (Matt. 25:10), because they will not be ready. These must therefore endure the period of the wrath of God (as will the 144,000), and many will be martyred therein by the Beast. These will be the resurrected Rev. 20:4 saints.

[WilliamL]

20 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

William

So have these six things come upon Israel as written as you say..  If not, the 70th Week is still future.

And as I have shown you a number of times, yes, these things all came upon Israel in the first century AD. You seem to have a short-term memory difficulty. And the 70th week is history.