Could Mecca be Mystery Babylon?

[Spock]

According to Wikipedia, Mecca does sit on 7 hills. They have the entire list of cities that sit on 7 hills if you are interested. Pretty fascinating too.

[Spock]

Hey Ezra, did you read that link I attached from Shoebat? He makes a pretty good case for Mecca as Mystery Babylon by using the OT prophets for a good bit of evidence.

[BlindSeeker]

8 minutes ago, Spock said:

Wow, looks interesting. I know I would read it, but if it is only through Kindle, I guess not. I'm not giving them another dollar from me. Is it available as an ebook outside of Kindle?

PS. Did you answer my question- why do you consider Britain and USA "beasts" when they both have supported Israel? Thanks.

No, had it all online for a while before posting it on Kindle, but once you do you are not supposed to have it online anymore except parts for promotion.

. . . and yes, I do deal with Britain and the America as beasts and how they fail to bless Israel... for it is either gathering or scatter, for or against, blessing or curse. I would recommend a book called Eye to Eye by William Koenig whose site is watch.org

 

[BlindSeeker]

8 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Here's why Mecca cannot be Mystery Babylon -- Mystery Babylon sits on seven mountains (Rev 17:9) whereas Mecca sits in a valley. And he it is who hath withheld men’s hands from you, and hath withheld your hands from them, in the valley of Mecca, after He had made you victors over them. Allāh is Seer of what ye do. (Sūra 48:24, Pickthall)

Furthermore, the Antichrist will make Jerusalem his centre of power, not Mecca (2 Thess 2:4), and Rome and the church of Rome will be closely linked to him.

   Here is a small excerpts regarding the seven mountains mentioned in Revelations from my book The Eighth Beast, Chapter 4 - Key Players of Revelation, -

Point 5. The angel explains to John that this beast “that was, and is not, even he,” was a prophetic and historical representation of the various empires in Israel’s past and present, and future. However, in context of John’s vision and the prophecy, the overall seven-headed beast represents that final empire that goes into destruction; and is therefore referred to as “The Eighth Beast” throughout this book. It will be presented both how and why this seven headed beast represents a succession of spiritual Babylons and the rise of “the eighth.” Of this eighth and final manifestation, it is said that “the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”

The beast’s seven heads are designed to represent a historic succession of “mountains” which are prophetic of these kingdoms, four of which Daniel’s vision additionally confirms are “four great beasts [that] come up from the sea.”

Daniel 7:3 - And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Revelation 17:9 - And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Readers will find it helpful to keep this final “eighth beast” in mind while reading through Revelation chapters 13-18.

 

POINT 9. The woman is said to sit on the sea, the beast, and seven mountains.

Revelation 17:1 - And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Revelation 17:3 - So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:9 - And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

This woman characterizes a spiritual force of wickedness that aggressively seeks to steal the glory, affection, and worship due to the true and living God and to Him alone. It is not a single entity that has managed to manifest its presence everywhere, for only God is omnipresent, filling all time and space, being everywhere all the time, all through time, at the same time. Thus this woman represents a conglomeration of fallen angelic forces determinedly working as “principalities… powers… rulers of the darkness of this world… [and] spiritual wickedness in high places.” Working in every nation to destroy through religious deception that which was created in the image of God to be the glory of God filling all the earth, which is humanity.

 These whorish religious institutions will be working just as Balaam did; who could not curse the people of God, but for the reward of filthy mammon gave devilish counsel to their enemies. Therefore they sent in seductive women, just like the seductive doctrines in the churches today, that they might draw the hearts of God’s people away from Him after other gods, thus causing destruction to come upon them through the wrath of God for their willful sins.

Numbers 25:1 - And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. 2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.

Numbers 31:16 - Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

Thus this woman that rides the beast is referred to as “the great whore that sitteth upon many waters.” However, since the visions given to Daniel concerning the rise and fall of nations, the coming of Messiah, and definite end time events, all deal with “thy people and upon thy holy city,” we are given the specific account of the woman sitting on “seven mountains” to denote those empires which will have had a direct correlation with Israel leading up to the rise of the Eighth Beast.

The fact that in Chapter 17 the woman is riding the Eight Beast reveals that the authority and power of another mountain, or empire, has once again been completely usurped by this woman through her seductive Jezebelian spirit; for she is now shown to be controlling the beast through her enchantments and manipulations. And just as Jezebel plotted to “war with the” righteous to kill them and steal their inheritance, so will the Eighth Beast and the Mother of Harlots make war with those “which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” However, just as Jezebel was thrown down and died, so will be the fate of this latter day spiritual Babylon.

Revelation 17:9 - And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

(An another short excerpt regarding the mountains from the beginning of Chapter 7)

 The Eighth Beast- Part II

·       “I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

One of the main clues told to the apostle John by the angel is one which most people tend to overlook, almost as if it was needless old King James terminology word-filler. The angel told John, “The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition.” In another place the angel repeats it this way, “the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Most people read right past this clue and place all their focus on the part about the “seven mountains,” many yielding to the common temptation to redefine them as “seven hills,” as those upon which Rome is situated. This is done out of a determination of some to apply the significance of these “seven mountains” to the Roman Catholic Church.

My main question for those laboring to interpret it that way would be when did the Catholic Church cease to exist (and not just simply flounder at times from political oppression) and then revive? For this prophetic phrase “was, and is not, and yet is,” unquestionably indicates something which had a prior existence, but then ceased to be, and yet came back into existence once again. Regardless what theory people are inclined to lean towards, all these verses must fit their interpretation; or they simply do not say whatever it is people keep attempting to assign to them.

Revelation 17:9 - And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The angel prefaces these things with telling John, “Here is the mind which hath wisdom,” or perhaps simply, “here is wisdom” for those willing to prayerfully reason all this through. Regardless, the angel reveals unto John another clue to record for those who would later be seeking understanding of these things. “The seven heads are seven mountains… there are seven kings, five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come.” What we see woven in this phrase is the concept that was just given in 17:8; a past, a present, and a future.

Since the beast has seven heads which prophetically represent the seven mountains or kingdoms with their respective seven kings, five of which John was told “are fallen,” we can positively determine who these five kingdoms were, as well as their corresponding kings. For at that time of the vision these five were all in the comparative PAST of the Apostle John. Furthermore, the angel tells John that this seven headed beast “is” represented yet again a sixth time and was a functioning empire at the time of John’s vision.  Since the angelic discourse is prophetically connecting “the one is” to the Apostle John’s PRESENT time frame, if one would have asked John if there was a king and nation that was oppressing Israel he would have definitively answered, “Yes, Caesar of Rome.”

Because there are seven heads on the beast, it is obvious that just like the five before it that this sixth king and his kingdom were going to fall as well. There would then be an unspecified duration of time in which this seven headed beast “is not” manifested. When the beast does reappear it will be the next head representing the seventh mountain and king. The angel tells John this king’s identity will be notably marked by the fact that he will only be permitted to “continue a short space.”

Revelation 17:10 - And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The Seven Mountains

Let’s look at some scriptures to further confirm what is being prophetically implied through the angel’s use of the word “mountain” in his interpretation of the seven heads to John.

Jeremiah 51:24 - And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD. 25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. 

Zechariah 4:7 - Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. 

Daniel 2:35 - Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 

Daniel 2:45 - Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Amos 4:1 - Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink.

Amos 6:1 - Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came!

So all that remains is to determine just who the “seven mountains” nations are that were represented by the beast’s seven heads…

 

[Marilyn C]

18 hours ago, Spock said:

Yes!!!!!!!!

I love updates. Lay it on me sister!

Question though: Daniel chapter 2 and 8 obviously are not contemporary, agree? Well, at least chapter 8 starts out "old time" but I think switches gear at v. 23, when the man of intrigue enters the picture. Why would God throw chapter 7 in between those two and make it all contemporary? Doesn't that seem a bit odd? I realize you would have to be in the mind of God to properly answer it, but I still would like to hear your thoughts regarding such.

Thanks,
Spock

Hi Spock,

That is a great question & reveals good logical thinking on your part, I believe bro. Now the book of Daniel is written in 2 parts in 2 different languages –

1. Aramaic – International language of the time, for the Nations.

2. Hebrew – for the people of Israel.

Two different perspectives regarding God`s purposes for 1. The Nations, & 2. Israel.

 

Ist Section – in Aramaic to the Nations. (Dan. 2: 4 – 7: 28)

It is mainly a narrative of Daniel in the Babylonian Court. There God reveals the Overview of the 5 Gentile World Rulers that would come (including Babylon) till God sets up His rulership through Israel. God, the King of Heaven is shown as the power behind the rulerships & He will judge whether they are just & God honouring. (eg. King Neb. 4: 27 -33, & Belshazzar 5: 25 – 31.)

Then God reveals the final set up before the last world ruler, (Dan. 7). Being the climax to the Gentile World Rulership, this special time is given close attention. Great powers blocs are shown to come but are overcome by the most terrifying force. Finally judgment is passed by the heavenly court & the Gentile rulership is taken away & given to Israel.

• God is the Judge of the nations.

 

2^nd Section – in Hebrew to Israel. (Dan. 8 – 12)

In dealing with His rebellious people Israel, God reveals certain important events regarding

• The desecration of their sanctuary. (the Holy of Holies)

• The atoning of the nation, its land, its people & the holy city.

 

Ch. 8. Who desecrates the sanctuary, for how long & where he arises from.

Ch. 9. How long till the nation of Israel will be chastised & atonement come.

Ch. 10. The Lord stands for His people against Satanic forces.

Ch. 11. Further historic & future details of where the A/C arises & what he does.

Ch. 12. Finally Israel is delivered & restored.

• God is the deliverer of Israel.

 

[Ezra]

19 hours ago, Spock said:

PS. Did you answer my question- why do you consider Britain and USA "beasts" when they both have supported Israel? Thanks.

Were they "beastly" in Iraq?  After all that is where the city of Babylon will be re-established.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

This can not be Rome, as during this time; Rome was at war with the Parthian Empire. An Empire that equally matched that of the Roman Empire.

In order for Rome to be reigning over the kings of the earth, she seems to have failed to conquer the Middle East proper. Since that would be the world view of such a time.

False. This type of prophetic hyperbole is found in Daniel 2 and elsewhere among the prophets. Speaking to Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel said:

“You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold." Daniel 2:37-38

 

Did he really rule over all men? Of course not. He ruled over his "world," but not over Earth. Same type of hyperbole is found in Rev. 17:18.

 

Regarding the present tense; John is seeing this vision in the future...being in the future he is describing what she is doing presently in that future.

Rev 17:8 proves this:

The beast, which you saw, once was (past tense) , is not (No present tense) , and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. (Future tense)

False again. The Beast "is not" -- present tense -- present in John's day, because he was bound in the Abyss. He was present before the Flood, and he will be present again after arising out of the Abyss. Thus he is "the Beast that was, and is not, and yet is." That is, he yet is -- present tense -- in the sense of still being in existence, but not in the sense of being present in John's day.

[Spock]

On December 27, 2015 at 9:47 AM, BlindSeeker said:

Perhaps this might interest you, http://theeighthbeast.com/2015/09/02/the-eighth-beast-is-america-missing-in-prophecy/

 

Hey Seeker,

I've  been reading your link a bit more and I can see the basis for the argument better today.  Perhaps the beast countries like Britain and USA as you believe don't have to bully Israel, but merely rule over Palestine. 

This would make sense with Britain because she did rule over Palestine after ww1, but I don't see how this makes sense with America. America has never ruled over Palestine and I don't suppose they will.

so, again I ask you......could this 8th beast be another nation that will rule over Israel?  Since Rev 17 says it comes out of the abyss, is it possible this 8th beast is some fallen angel who has been locked up in the abyss until it's time to open up the door, and who will be assigned to rule over some other nation, maybe Islamic, maybe not?   (5th trumpet??)

actually, it makes more sense to see USA as a victim of the beasts evil rather than to be the beast. I think America will suffer at the hands of the beast. 

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

That is a great question & reveals good logical thinking on your part, I believe bro. Now the book of Daniel is written in 2 parts in 2 different languages –

1. Aramaic – International language of the time, for the Nations.

2. Hebrew – for the people of Israel.

Two different perspectives regarding God`s purposes for 1. The Nations, & 2. Israel.

 

Ist Section – in Aramaic to the Nations. (Dan. 2: 4 – 7: 28)

It is mainly a narrative of Daniel in the Babylonian Court. There God reveals the Overview of the 5 Gentile World Rulers that would come (including Babylon) till God sets up His rulership through Israel. God, the King of Heaven is shown as the power behind the rulerships & He will judge whether they are just & God honouring. (eg. King Neb. 4: 27 -33, & Belshazzar 5: 25 – 31.)

Then God reveals the final set up before the last world ruler, (Dan. 7). Being the climax to the Gentile World Rulership, this special time is given close attention. Great powers blocs are shown to come but are overcome by the most terrifying force. Finally judgment is passed by the heavenly court & the Gentile rulership is taken away & given to Israel.

• God is the Judge of the nations.

 

2^nd Section – in Hebrew to Israel. (Dan. 8 – 12)

In dealing with His rebellious people Israel, God reveals certain important events regarding

• The desecration of their sanctuary. (the Holy of Holies)

• The atoning of the nation, its land, its people & the holy city.

 

Ch. 8. Who desecrates the sanctuary, for how long & where he arises from.

Ch. 9. How long till the nation of Israel will be chastised & atonement come.

Ch. 10. The Lord stands for His people against Satanic forces.

Ch. 11. Further historic & future details of where the A/C arises & what he does.

Ch. 12. Finally Israel is delivered & restored.

• God is the deliverer of Israel.

 

Hi Spock,

 

Just posted this again in case you missed it first time round.

 

blessings, Marilyn.

[Spock]

Marilyn,

thanks. It makes perfect sense. God talking from two different perspectives. Our God is pretty thorough after all.

spock