Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, other one said:

and we refer to it as being up so it must be on top of the second heaven.

Shalom, other one.

We refer to it as being "up" because the "sky" (Greek: ouranos) is up; nothing more! It comes from an unfortunate translation that says,

2 Corinthians 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
KJV

When the Greek word "harpagenta," coming from "harpazoo" ("oo" being the omega) from which these two words are given as translation, says NOTHING about "up," and no other word in the context says "up!"

NT:726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, no, it does NOT have to be "on top of the second heaven!"

[other one]

7 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, other one.

We refer to it as being "up" because the "sky" (Greek: ouranos) is up; nothing more! It comes from an unfortunate translation that says,

2 Corinthians 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
KJV

When the Greek word "harpagenta," coming from "harpazoo" ("oo" being the omega) from which these two words are given as translation, says NOTHING about "up," and no other word in the context says "up!"

NT:726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, no, it does NOT have to be "on top of the second heaven!"

That was supposed to be funny....    seriously::::::

I happen to believe that it is actually the tenth dimension and it resides in the same space as ours but at a much higher energy level.... 

[Retrobyter]

26 minutes ago, other one said:

That was supposed to be funny....    seriously::::::

I happen to believe that it is actually the tenth dimension and it resides in the same space as ours but at a much higher energy level.... 

Shalom, again, other one.

TENTH dimension?!! What, pray tell, are dimensions 5 through 9?

Are we being "funny" again?

[other one]

13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, other one.

TENTH dimension?!! What, pray tell, are dimensions 5 through 9?

Are we being "funny" again?

no not being funny.....    five and six are sub dimensions and seven would be the second heaven and 8 and 9 sub dimensions and ten the place of heaven.    One would have to be familiar with string theory theoretical physics to get much of a grasp on it, but it's a hobby of mine to delve into now and then mainly to keep my mind exercised.  Total abstract thinking is healthy for a good mental condition......   which I need a lot of help with since Alzheimer's runs in my family.

Actually when you look at the characteristics of that dimension, it can kind of explain how some of the descriptions of how God works makes a lot of sense.    Such as being everywhere all at the same time...

Anyway it's mathematically set up to be that way.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, other one said:

no not being funny.....    five and six are sub dimensions and seven would be the second heaven and 8 and 9 sub dimensions and ten the place of heaven.    One would have to be familiar with string theory theoretical physics to get much of a grasp on it, but it's a hobby of mine to delve into now and then mainly to keep my mind exercised.  Total abstract thinking is healthy for a good mental condition......   which I need a lot of help with since Alzheimer's runs in my family.

Actually when you look at the characteristics of that dimension, it can kind of explain how some of the descriptions of how God works makes a lot of sense.    Such as being everywhere all at the same time...

Anyway it's mathematically set up to be that way.

Shalom, other one.

Did you know that those who believe in ten dimensions describe it this way?

Visual Guide to 10 dimensions of reality

I really can't subscribe to that mentality. It assumes that God may have run every possible scenario before giving us a shot, and I believe that is nonsense for an onmipotent, omniscient God.

See, we think of time as multiple possibilities; God sees the ONE path we all shall take. That's why He said,

Isaiah 46:9-10
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
KJV

This multiple-dimensions theory seems to suggest that He sees all the possible paths we may take and makes a new earth just for each combination of possibilities. What a waste for an efficient God!

[other one]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, other one.

Did you know that those who believe in ten dimensions describe it this way?

Visual Guide to 10 dimensions of reality

I really can't subscribe to that mentality. It assumes that God may have run every possible scenario before giving us a shot, and I believe that is nonsense for an onmipotent, omniscient God.

See, we think of time as multiple possibilities; God sees the ONE path we all shall take. That's why He said,

Isaiah 46:9-10
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
KJV

This multiple-dimensions theory seems to suggest that He sees all the possible paths we may take and makes a new earth just for each combination of possibilities. What a waste for an efficient God!

Some may, but they really don't support much about God in any manor, in any dimension. They pretty much pervert anything that discusses how God would do anything....

[Guest]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

"I will give all the land you see to you and your offspring forever" (Gen. 13:15).

The whole land of Canaan where you are now an alien, I will give to you and your descendants after you: and I will be their God" (Gen. 17:8).

May God give you and your descendants the blessing given to Abraham so that you may take possession of the land where you now live as an alien, the land God gave to Abraham" (Gen. 28:4).

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. (Heb 11:8)

Abraham is also included in the promise of possessing the land. You can not ignore nor twist this...this is plan truth of the matter. Confirmed in the OT and NT Abraham inherits the land.

The only reason why Abraham could not possess it in his life time was due to God's plan of passing judgememt and evicting the canaanites, and of cause growing in the womb of Egypt a nation called Israel in order to conduct the judgement and eviction. 

Thats why two thousand years later, when the New Testament was written, Stephen, shortly before he was martyred, explained that "God gave Abraham no inheritance here, not even a foot of ground. But God promised him that he and his descendants after him would possess the land" (Acts 7:5).

Abraham is still an inheritor of the land which he will occupy when he is resurrected....in other words what God promised to Abraham all the way back in Genesis finds it's fullment when Christ returns  

It is a "heavenly" land since it is divinely ordained by the God of Heaven and will be blessed with the presence of the Messiah himself.

It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. Roms 4:13

Not ONLY is Abraham to inherit the land of Israel but the entire world with the messiah....global domination. Through Abraham being righteous.

Now we look at what Paul is trying to illustrate with Sarah and Hagar...this has NOTHING to do with trying to disprove that Abraham does not inherit the land of Israel but has everything to do with the trying to be justified through the law [OT - Law] and justified through righteousness [NT - righteousness], ratified by Jesus Christ.

The progression of all of this to the NT is throwing away the yoke of the law and circumcising your heart with the law. 

Because that is what the lesson is with Galatians of what Paul is teaching

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (Gal 5:1)

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (Gal 5 : 4)

So what must you do to be justified in righteousness like Abraham was?

Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."

Again what is this all about?

 

Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? (Gal 4:21)

 

You have confused this in some weird way to show Abraham does not inherit the land of Israel? When that's not even the case to begin with on what Paul is teaching, which is about the law and trying to be justified by the law and not through righteousness and grace.

 

He does not inherit an earthly worldly kingdom, of this life. That is what Hebrews teaches.

I gave you Galatians to show the difference between the sons born by natural mean vs Sons born by Gods spirit. Which includes Jew and Gentile. We all must be born again.....

And now I will give you this.....

  11  And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 

 

 

[enoob57]

9 hours ago, *Zion* said:

You don't say, sir! 

I did  was that me.... ah oh I did  

[Guest]

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 9:23 PM, inchrist said:

No I see the progression of  same covenant made with Abraham and his seed to possess the promise land of Israel. As explained Abraham is a joint heir to that land and for Abraham personally that will be fullfilled when he is resurrected as with other fathers Israel and Moses.

 

But there are two covenants made with Abram/Abraham

Genesis 15 and then again in Genesis 17

Considering what we are taught concerning covenants in Galatians.....

Ga 3:15  Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

I see this as teaching each covenant is self contained. Each having it's own boundary for those under them.

 So rather than a covenant progessing, there are two covenants which the promise made To Abraham PROGESSES.

Each covenant standing alone, disallows for men to go beyond the boundaries of that which of their respective covenants bind them to. But The promises itself is not held back from progression.

Men are limited by them, not the promise.  The promise continues, but men are limited by covenants concerning that promise Gal 3:18. Men taking on a status or role more so than they were given.

Ga 3:17  And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Ga 3:18  For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Ga 3:19  Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
 

I also understand the law to be given to increase grace, as the promise progresses to its fulfillment, that it might be mercy to all sinners.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2016 by Joline
spelling additions

[Your closest friendnt]

On 13 February, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Joline said:

I think what is interesting is....Esau and lot were given  land by God also before The children of Israel.

ESAU......

De 2:4  And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:
De 2:5  Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.
De 2:12  The Horims also dwelt in Seir beforetime; but the children of Esau succeeded them, when they had destroyed them from before them, and dwelt in their stead; as Israel did unto the land of his possession, which the LORD gave unto them.
De 2:22  As he did to the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, when he destroyed the Horims from before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead even unto this day:
Jos 24:4  And I gave unto Isaac Jacob and Esau: and I gave unto Esau mount Seir, to possess it; but Jacob and his children went down into Egypt.

LOT,,,,,,

De 2:19  And when thou comest nigh over against the children of Ammon, distress them not, nor meddle with them: for I will not give thee of the land of the children of Ammon any possession; because I have given it unto the children of Lot for a possession.
 

They lost their inheritance to be sure, but Israel maintained a distinct covenant which I believe sustained them in the promises. The covenant of circumcision. God really did increase Grace in all these things with Israel. As rebellion and sin increased, so too did his grace. For God is and always was faithful to keep his promises made to Abraham in the second covenant.

It keeps them today, and that is why the circumcision continued among the jews. It was vital to them.

20  And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21  And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
 

 

I see that every one from the children of Abraham  received some land, to build a house and make some name of them selfs, even the children of Lot. 

And even while the children of the inheritance, all the children of Jacob were still in Egypt.

God gave to the other children of Abraham and to Esau some inheritance, and they did not have to live like servants to other people. And he also gave some inheritance to the children of Lot. 

There is something thought that it distinguish them from the children of Jacob;

One of them is that God said;

"Israel is my first Born", thus setting apart Jacob,s descendants.

And to whom did the Lord said; 

"Israel is my first born, and I want no other", but to the one who wanted the Lord to be his, the one whose invitation the Lord decline or rejected.

And that is no other than the Great Farrow

But that's not the only point I was going to make.

The Lords choice to have the Descendans of Jacob as the heirs of his promise to Abraham is first seen in his statement to Anraham, "in the captivity your seed will be multiplied and become a great nation", and "out of Egypt your seed will come and Inherit this Land".

Later on after delivering them from  Egypt, he chose a people for him self out of the children of Jacob, 

One more thing, to the discendands of Jacob he gave the Law, and the instructions about the Tabernacle, and he accepted worship only from them, and instituted the Priesthood. 

The Lord later divited the land only to the children of Jacob.

Strange that Moses was a levity, the same as Aaron, "brothers".

Strange that Aarons office remained in his family, but not Moses.

We see that the spiritual inheritance was given to the children of Jacob only that came out of Egypt and not to the other children of Abraham, and not to Abraham, Isaac, and or Jacob. 

And it was given not only to the children who came out of Egypt, who were Sircumsize, but also to the children born in the dessert who were unsircumsize.

I understand that all those events did not happen by accident, that they were to have a special meaning and help us understand of the things to come. 

Like when the priest stepped with the Arc of the Lord,  in the waters of Jordan, and the waters pull up and open the way to the earthly Promish Land.

The same way, when the priest will put the Promish Christ to death, then the way to the heavenly inheritance will open and be given for inheritance to the Children of the "Heavenly Israel", who is Jesus Christ. 

Some thing litle for contribution,

"paying my tithes".