Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[JohnD]

On 12/29/2015 at 11:06 AM, JohnD said:

2 Corinthians 12:2–5 (NASB95)

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—

4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.

Revelation 2:7 (NASB95)

7 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

The term "third heaven" follows the ancient understanding that there is heaven the sky, heaven outer space beyond the sky, and heaven beyond space where God's throne is.

Jesus seems to have thrown this teaching a curve:

Luke 17:21 (NASB95)

21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Some translations say the Kingdom of God is within you... (KJV / NKJV)...

In your midst would also seem to point to Jesus himself... one greater than Moses, Solomon, the temple etc. is here...

And at the time he spoke the words only he was in the kingdom of God which was not possible for us to enter into until his death on the cross (Hebrews 9:16-17).

In one sense, we are all vessels of the kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 3:16 (NASB95)

16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Romans 8:9 (NASB95)

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Galatians 4:21–31 (NASB95)

21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.

23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.

24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

27 For it is written, “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more numerous are the children of the desolate Than of the one who has a husband.”

28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

2 Peter 3:3–8 (NASB95)

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,

4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”

5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

Isaiah 34:4 (NASB95)

4 And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or as one withers from the fig tree.

Revelation 6:12–17 (NASB95)

12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;

13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;

16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Isaiah 65:17–19 (NASB95)

17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

18 “But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing And her people for gladness.

19 “I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.

2 Peter 3:13–14 (NASB95)

13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

Revelation 21:1–7 (NASB95)

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”

6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

7 “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 (NASB95)

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Hope this explains what you are asking about.

God bless.

[other one]

8 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Uh yeah... ! I am very concerned.

Every nuclear explosion was set off by a chain reaction in the small space of atoms. 

What they are doing at CERN is to try to go faster than the speed of light in the subatomic level, reproduce in that tiny realm the heat of the big bang, and possibly create a black hole. Any one of which could unleash a chain reaction that would quickly upend this fragile balancing act we call mother earth.

 

 

according to several of the scientists I've been reading, they are hoping to open a doorway into a new dimension and hope something comes through it.

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, other one said:

according to several of the scientists I've been reading, they are hoping to open a doorway into a new dimension and hope something comes through it.

Not surprised.

This may be the very way the devil is loosed on the earth for a short time (Revelation 20).

[Retrobyter]

On December 29, 2015 at 0:06 PM, JohnD said:

2 Corinthians 12:2–5 (NASB95)

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—

4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.

Revelation 2:7 (NASB95)

7 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

The term "third heaven" follows the ancient understanding that there is heaven the sky, heaven outer space beyond the sky, and heaven beyond space where God's throne is. 

Jesus seems to have thrown this teaching a curve:

Luke 17:21 (NASB95)

21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Some translations say the Kingdom of God is within you... (KJV / NKJV)...

In your midst would also seem to point to Jesus himself... one greater than Moses, Solomon, the temple etc. is here...

And at the time he spoke the words only he was in the kingdom of God which was not possible for us to enter into until his death on the cross (Hebrews 9:16-17).

In one sense, we are all vessels of the kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 3:16 (NASB95)

16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Romans 8:9 (NASB95)

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Galatians 4:21–31 (NASB95)

21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.

23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.

24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

27 For it is written, “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more numerous are the children of the desolateThan of the one who has a husband.”

28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

2 Peter 3:3–8 (NASB95)

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,

4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”

5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

Isaiah 34:4 (NASB95)

4 And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or as one withers from the fig tree.

Revelation 6:12–17 (NASB95)

12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;

13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;

16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Isaiah 65:17–19 (NASB95)

17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

18 “But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing And her people for gladness.

19 “I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.

2 Peter 3:13–14 (NASB95)

13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

Revelation 21:1–7 (NASB95)

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”

6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

7 “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 (NASB95)

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Hope this explains what you are asking about.

God bless.

First of all, stop quoting English versions as though they were the final answer to the dilemma. 2 Corinthians 12:2 and 4 do NOT have the word "up" in them! It's just plain WRONG to suggest that the direction of "up" is in those verses AT ALL! Let it read like this:

2 Corinthians 12:2–5 (NASB95)

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was snatched away to the third heaven.

3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—

4 was snatched away into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.

Your diagram suggests an arrangement that is NOT supported by Scripture, least of all in this passage!Your statement, 'The term "third heaven" follows the ancient understanding that there is heaven the sky, heaven outer space beyond the sky, and heaven beyond space where God's throne is,' is UNSUPPORTED! Who even KNOWS how this nonsense got started?! THAT'S THE RHETORIC! THAT'S THE ASSUMPTION that I REJECT!! It makes absolutely no sense to jump on this bandwagon when we have Peter's better explanation of what the "third heaven" is!

Revelation 2:7 poses no problem whatsoever to my viewpoint.

Luke 17:21 actually says this in context:

Luke 17:20-21
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within (Greek: entos = "within" or "among" depending on context) you (Greek: humoon = "you" plural).
KJV

As I've said before, the information that is provided by the KJV doesn't lose this Greek information; "humoon" is plural and so is "you" and "ye." ("Thee" and "thou" are singular.) Yeshua` was talking to the P'rushiym, the Pharisees, and answered THEM, when He said the "kingdom of God is AMONG YOU ALL! He was NOT saying that the Kingdom of God was inside each one of them! Seriously?! The PHARISEES?! The Kingdom of God was within THEM?! No, He was saying that the HEART of the Kingdom of God, the Messiah to be King, was AMONG them because HE was AMONG THE GROUP OF THEM!

You then said, "And at the time he spoke the words only he was in the kingdom of God which was not possible for us to enter into until his death on the cross (Hebrews 9:16-17)."

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. You sound like you know nothing about the kingdom of God at all! The Kingdom of God has been in effect since the day He led the children of Israel out of Egypt! You sound like you believe you have some corner on the Kingdom! And, Hebrews 9:16-17 doesn't have anything to do with it; that's about one's final will and testament, not about God's Kingdom! God was the first King of that Kingdom, with His spokesmen, Mosheh (Moses) and Y'howshua`ah (Joshua), then His spokesmen were the judges that He raised up for each enemy Israel faced during those 400+ years. Finally, when they rejected the prophet/judge Shmu'el (Samuel) for a human king like other nations had, God first raised them Sha'uwl (Saul) and then David. David's dynasty has been permanently established, and it is through David's bloodline that Yeshua` was born, born genetically through David's son, Natan (Nathan) [Miryam's (Mary's) line], and heir by adoption through David's son, Shlomoh (Solomon) [Yosef's (Joseph's) line].

All the rest of these verses make no difference to the concept that "heaven" is the "sky."

Finally, your diagram is flawed. It is the "FIRMAMENT," renamed "haSHAAMAAYIM (the SKY)," that is where the birds fly!

Genesis 1:20
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
KJV

He separated the waters into two parts with the expanse; He did NOT divide the expanse into three parts!

[JohnD]

5 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

First of all, stop quoting English versions as though they were the final answer to the dilemma. 2 Corinthians 12:2 and 4 do NOT have the word "up" in them! It's just plain WRONG to suggest that the direction of "up" is in those verses AT ALL!

Whatever gave you the idea I was emphasizing UP?

And look in the mirror to the only one who considers you authoritative or able to give others orders here. Stop quoting English versions... do you realize how foolish that makes you sound?

[JohnD]

8 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Your diagram suggests an arrangement that is NOT supported by Scripture, least of all in this passage!Your statement, 'The term "third heaven" follows the ancient understanding that there is heaven the sky, heaven outer space beyond the sky, and heaven beyond space where God's throne is,' is UNSUPPORTED! Who even KNOWS how this nonsense got started?! THAT'S THE RHETORIC! THAT'S THE ASSUMPTION that I REJECT!! It makes absolutely no sense to jump on this bandwagon when we have Peter's better explanation of what the "third heaven" is!

Genesis 1:20 heaven (sky)

Genesis 1:14-17 heaven (space)

Matthew 6:9 heaven (Paradise, God's throne)

 

 

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, JohnD said:

 

20 hours ago, JohnD said:

Whatever gave you the idea I was emphasizing UP?

And look in the mirror to the only one who considers you authoritative or able to give others orders here. Stop quoting English versions... do you realize how foolish that makes you sound?

Shalom, JohnD.

When you say, 'The term "third heaven" follows the ancient understanding that there is heaven the sky, heaven outer space beyond the sky, and heaven beyond space where God's throne is' following a quotation of 2 Corinthians 12:2-5 from the NASB95, you have been influenced by the translators of that version, just as thousands have been before you.

Given evidence #1:
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
...
4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. (NASB95)

Given evidence #2:
NT:726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Due to the translators using the phrase "was caught UP" to translate the Greek word "harpagenta" (a form of "harpazoo," NT:726), which merely means "was siezed," they have telegraphed their own interpretation of the verses and have subtly transmitted their interpretation to the reader. My INTENT was to awaken your mind to this subtlety.

By insisting that the "third heaven" is "beyond space," you have demonstrated that you received their subtle message loud and clear. Whether you learned this interpretation of the verses through this version, through another version, or more likely through the teaching of others, you have been exposed to this interpretation and have accepted it. Don't worry, though. It was not intentional nor done maliciously. Millions have been so influenced. In any case, this version that you quoted at least appears to support and reinforce the interpretation that you have accepted as fact, however it was transmitted to you.

Now, when I said, "First of all, stop quoting English versions as though they were the final answer to the dilemma," I was NOT giving an order! I was merely trying to say that one should NOT give the same credence to the English versions of the Bible that he or she should give to the original Greek version or versions. While the English makes it "clear" to us, the words the translators choose can be misleading, whether intentional or not. We MUST make sure, especially in questionable passages, that our understanding of what is being said is compatable with the understanding the author of the book was intending to communicate, and the best way that we can do that is to question everything we read in the English versions, comparing the thoughts we think we are reading with the thoughts that are conveyed by the Greek vocabulary and grammar. If one doesn't know Greek, he or she is at a distinct disadvantage when investigating a passage of the Bible in fine detail, but there are ways to circumvent this disadvantage. One can look up the Greek words using a Strong's Concordance, but that's just half the battle (less than that if you recognize that the words are neither given the declension of nouns, pronouns, or adjectives nor the conjugation of verbs). But, one can also use on-line helps, such as Bible Hub or Blue Letter Bible, to investigate the Greek of the verses further.

What I am trying to say to you is this: Look at 2 Corinthians 12:2-5 with an open mind, questioning the typical interpretation, and investigating what the Greek actually says. You would find, as I'm trying to convey, that the Greek word for "up" (ana) is NOT in these verses, nor do the Greek words that ARE present demand an interpretation of "up."

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, inchrist said:

And yet you persistently ignore scripture given to you. 

Your entire approach to this was from a wrong angle and your message as been lost

Shalom, inChrist.

Not at all, bro! I've not "ignored Scripture" at all! I am fully aware that God created both the light and the "source" of that light. He just did them in the REVERSE ORDER, so to speak! And, that is one fact that YOU have repeatedly and persistently ignored! He did not create the "source" of the light, first! He created them both - BAM! - at the SAME EXACT MOMENT! The phrase is, "He created them with the appearance of age!" What He placed IN our "firmament" (birqiya`) called "the heaven" (haShaamayim) - or "expanse" called "the Skies" - was the PHOTONIC ENERGY, "LIGHTS" (m'orot)! (Gen. 1:14.) What He placed "ABOVE the sky" (epouranios) was the "sun, moon, and stars" (heeliou kai ... seleenees kai ... asteroon).  (1 Cor. 15:40-41.)

Genesis 1 and 2 are NOT talking about the Creation of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE (except in passing); they are talking about the Creation of our BIOSPHERE ON THIS PLANET EARTH! Learn that, and everything else will fall into place.

[Retrobyter]

On January 5, 2016 at 0:17 AM, inchrist said:

You don't really know your scriptures to well.

You keep ignoring or I suspect you lack a complete understanding of the tabernacle?

 

Shalom, again, inChrist.

Oh, and by the way, I understand the Tabernacle quite well. I helped my father (a Baptist minister) build a model of it on a 4' x 8' piece of plywood when I was in elementary school! (I'm 58 now. I believe he had ordered the pieces for it in some sort of a kit, I'm not sure of the details.) It's much better when you can look at it from various angles.

Have you considered that these details of the "Heavenly Temple," as you call it, may exist within the New Jerusalem? (Rev. 22:1-5.) Oh, and I just LOVE your little circle with "Multitudes" in it! LOL! But of course, you qualified it with "(not to scale)." 

Oh, and the "Heavenly Sea" consists of "AS IT WERE a sea of glass mingled with fire" (hoos thalassan hualineen memigmeneen puri). (Rev. 15:2.) Later, John said he saw "the victors ... stand upon the sea of the glass" (tous nikoontas ... hestootas epi teen thalassan teen hualineen). They were standing on some sort of LIGHTED MIRROR!

Just remember that, in any case, John said, 

Revelation 21:22
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
KJV

[Retrobyter]

On December 31, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Ezra said:

Retro,

While one can fly the friendly "skies" of United, "sky" is inappropriate for "Heaven" and you should know that by now. We have every reason to believe that the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd heavens are indeed progressively clouds, stars, and God's throne.

Shalom, Ezra.

So we can "fly the friendly 'skies.'" So what? That doesn't change the fact that Peter said that the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd heavens are progressively before the Flood, after the Flood before the Fire, and after the Fire.