Where is the 3rd Heaven?

[Guest Thallasa]

48 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, inChrist.

Y'know, it's easier to believe what I believe than it is to accept the nonsense that comes from your typing. It's more consistent with Scripture, and I don't care to formulate my beliefs around that fictional theory called Evolution ... which isn't a theory by the way. In reality, it is little more than a hypothesis. It cannot be observed nor can it be repeated through experimentation. Therefore, it is not true science, as science is defined.

Actually, you're wrong to think that "the universe is awash with water." While hydrogen may be abundant, oxygen is NOT. Helium, the next highest element on the periodic chart is much more abundant than oxygen. And, there's no such thing as a "pre-existent universal 'water'!" I challenge you for a source on THAT nonsense! See? You have your OWN mythology that YOU should deal with!

In your second point, you said, "2. Our own solar system is a washed with water....its really not difficult for God to call the little elements Oxygen and Hydrogen two by two together just like the ark, gather them up and send the flood, since they are the most abundant elements in the universe and in our solar system where a water vapour gas  could be formed near the earth for the flood." REALLY?! Well, the burden of proof is on you! How is "our own solar system awash with water?" It's really not, y'know, or our scientists would aim our rockets for the biggest patch of water they can find, looking for signs of life!

Also, there's no such thing as a "Hashamayim with a capital H" because there's no such thing as a capital letter in Hebrew!

Is this a 'war'  of egos ?

[Kan]

On 1/5/2016 at 3:17 PM, inchrist said:

You don't really know your scriptures to well.

You keep ignoring or I suspect you lack a complete understanding of the tabernacle?

 

That the first time I have seen this comparison presented, and I am delighted, because it may help to answer a question I had for years.

We all know that the heavenly is huge. The temple alone has been estimated to be 400 m long, and the courtyard measurement as given to Ezekiel is about 6 km in circumference. 

Someone made the comment that there is no temple in heaven, but they are thinking of what John saw at the end of the thousand years, when the temple is no longer needed, but it is there now and it will be there for at least another 1000 years.

[Kan]

On 1/9/2016 at 8:48 AM, inchrist said:

Did you know  ‘waters/ "mayim"  scriptually were the originally-created, basic building blocks of matter that the earth was made from, and further became all that was created outside of our atmosphere and into our universe.

See have a look here: Astronomers Find Largest, Oldest Mass of Water in Universe

http://m.space.com/12400-universe-biggest-oldest-cloud-water.html

Get this, they don't even know where it comes from...12-billion-year-old cloud harboring 140 trillion times more water than all of Earth's oceans combined.

Check this out what they had to say about water vapor

Scientists think water vapor was present even in the early universe. So finding this old cloud of the stuff doesn't come as a shock.

"It's another demonstration that water is pervasive throughout the universe, even at the very earliest times," said study lead author Matt Bradford of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif.

You wouldnt expect the writer of Genesis to make distinctions between things like stellar matter, methane gas, asteroids, comets, etc. 

A simple elemental term, ‘waters,’ is more than sufficient and efficient. 

This water/ flood that came from above could have come from any point in the expanse.

 

There's the problem, you think   "raqiya "  , is only limited to our atmosphere. 

God has a one too:

Eze 10:1 I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

Praise ye the LORD.  Praise God in His sanctuary;

praise Him in the firmament of His power.” (Ps. 150:1);

“Praise the LORD!  Praise God in His sanctuary;

Praise Him in His mighty firmament!” (Ps. 150:1);

“Praise Jehovah!  Praise God in His holy place;

Praise Him in the expanse [raqiya] of His might.” (Ps. 150:1)

How high in height is God's raqiya, it must be said unmeasurable. 

The Psalmist is calling for worshippers to praise Him in His sanctuary, in His holy place, in His firmament! 

Not just any firmament, but the firmament of His power, of His might, His mighty firmament! . 

That sit above the heads of the cherubims

Raqiya, can refer to either (1) a ‘heaven’—a stretched-out expanse (or space), 

or

(2) a “face”—a bound-together solid (or surface) 

Now this firmament stretched out like a scroll from the face of Gods throne”—Job 26:9 all the way to the face of the earth…” (Amos 9:6)

This is also unmeasurable

God alone stretches the firmament at His measurement which is unmeasurable

Ps. 19:1 As The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament showeth His handiwork

Dan 12:3

Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

You do not have a single measurement of equating equally raqiya only to our atmosphere, as shown the word raqiya meaning expand  is unmeasurable and must be treated as transitional zones between our atmosphere, the universe and God's abode. Your failer has been not to recognize this does not change the natural meaning of the word raqiya or shamayim.

 

This totally fascinates me, but I don't think that the "waters" in the first part of creation are H2O, but a supernatural element. The same as the Light first spoken into existence, is also supernatural, and not electromagnetism. 

And by supernatural, I actually mean natural, because God made them part of nature, they are tools He has made. They govern every physical phenomenon as well as unexplained phenomenon, such as lightning, rain, sun spots, aurora's, sprites, mountain lights, sudden wind changes, time differences in travelling objects, gravity, you name the mystery, they are all accounted for by the Bible. 

[Retrobyter]

19 hours ago, Thallasa said:

Is this a 'war'  of egos ?

Shalom, Thallasa.

No, it's a war of models.

[completedbeliever1]

There are three heavens, as Paul says, and the first one is "the firmament".  

The firmament is the "expanse", which is directly above the ground, all the way to the stratosphere.
 
The second one, is where the sun, moon, and stars are "housed".

And the third is unseen.  This heaven is the home to the father, son, and those who have died.

But, in reality it is seen.  By those who believe.  "...by faith..."  

Our minds are also seen as a "kind" of heaven.  It is where we imagine things, and where our beliefs are housed.  If we believe, then we are saved.  If we doubt, then we are not sure if we are saved.

It all starts in our minds.   

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎30‎/‎12‎/‎2015 at 2:18 PM, Littlelambseativy said:

The heavens which we see with the stars and planets are the 1st heaven. The 2nd heaven would be where the powers and principalities of the air (Satan and his angels) have dominion. The 3rd heaven is the abode of the Almighty God., where His throne and the throne of Jesus Who sits at God the Father!s right hand is.

This I believe is why Jesus will meet the Bride in the air and with the heavenly host escort her through the enemy's teritorry...the 2nd heaven.

I agree with the first and last ,but as for satan being in the second ,I doubt it ,but if you have evidence .

The earth is ruled by satan ,and probably the 'air 'around it . The second heaven must be a 'clearing place' 

for us ,  before we enter into the Holy of Holies .

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, Kan said:

This totally fascinates me, but I don't think that the "waters" in the first part of creation are H2O, but a supernatural element. The same as the Light first spoken into existence, is also supernatural, and not electromagnetism. 

And by supernatural, I actually mean natural, because God made them part of nature, they are tools He has made. They govern every physical phenomenon as well as unexplained phenomenon, such as lightning, rain, sun spots, aurora's, sprites, mountain lights, sudden wind changes, time differences in travelling objects, gravity, you name the mystery, they are all accounted for by the Bible. 

Shalom, Kan.

Now, don't YOU start! When the Scriptures talk about "waters," they are WATERS! PERIOD! H₂0! The same stuff we drink, the same stuff we use to wash, the same stuff in which the fish swim! What is WRONG with you people?! JUST ACCEPT THE WORD AT ITS FACE VALUE! One does NOT have to go NUTS with allegorical interpretations of God's Word!

Just stick to the simple truth. That's what Yeshua` did.

[Kan]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Kan.

Now, don't YOU start! When the Scriptures talk about "waters," they are WATERS! PERIOD! H₂0! The same stuff we drink, the same stuff we use to wash, the same stuff in which the fish swim! What is WRONG with you people?! JUST ACCEPT THE WORD AT ITS FACE VALUE! One does NOT have to go NUTS with allegorical interpretations of God's Word!

Just stick to the simple truth. That's what Yeshua` did.

True, water is water. And what is water? but matter, and what is matter made of?

See what God says in Psalms 104:3. The Psalms begins in heaven with God's throne and comes down to earth and creation. Even before the angels are mentioned, we have the what? "waters." The same waters as in the first part of Genesis 1, before God calls the earth what it is. Psalms 148:4. The "waters" are above the stars. If you think it is H2O, that's alright, because it is a kind of water, except that matter is actually made up of it, (and another thing as well). But we're way off track as far as topic goes.

Again in Psalms 148, it begins with the high heavens and talks about earth later, and in between mentioning the "waters" which be above the heavens.

Psalms 136:6 the earth is stretched above the "waters"

God asks Job what the earth is founded on, in Job 38, here is the answer, upon the waters.

If you consider it to be H2O then the earth lies upon water. All possible of course. 

Psalms 18 is about the return of Christ, and shows that the foundations of the earth will be uncovered. It talks about dark waters around God. Interesting.

Read carefully about these waters, and the foundations, and the deep, and the shadow of death, and the face of the deep, darkness, dark waters, and how it acts like stones, and is frozen, and so forth, and how if matter comes into contact with it, that it dissolves all matter with heat, and how God uses them to cause the mountains to catch fire - volcanoes and earthquakes and even rain is caused by the same. Note the underlined are all found in scripture. So what are these waters which are openly mentioned in the first book of the Bible? Tap water?

Just a thought. 

Sorry, I am so off topic.

[Kan]

9 hours ago, inchrist said:

Exactly we don't understand the full mechanics of how God created well everything let alone the mechanics of the flood, however for a canopy of water vapor to be around the earth from creation to the flooding, runs into serious scientific obstacles.

However to touch on the tabernacle, people would be surprised how much of a valuable key it is in understanding the design and function of the tabernacle, it really unlocks the entirety of the bible.

 

For example, in Revelation, John is shown the creation of the New Heaven and New earth, we can therefore be sure when Moses was on the summit of Mt Sinai when God was giving Moses the instructions to be the tabernacle, God also showed Moses the creation of this Earth and Heaven, there are so many parallels running with the design of the tabernacle to the creation. We can be sure that it was Moses who wrote the 5 books and we can be sure just like John saw the creation of the NEW Earth and NEW Heaven that Moses Saw the present Heaven and Earth being formed.

 

About Moses, I have never heard that before, I have thought that Moses received his knowledge from hand me downs. But it is very likely that God would have given him a full view of both creation and the real promised land.

[Kan]

There is so much that is shared and agreed on, in this thread, often people who agree in principle are debating over minor issues. We've got to be careful that we don't spoil the drink for those who are reading about heaven for the first time.