Is the doctrine of the Trinity biblical?

[angels4u]

13 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

No, numbers are symbolic when the text tells you they are symbolic.   Revelation does use some numbers symbolically.  But it also tells you when that is happening.   You don't get to apply symbolism arbitrarily when it suits your agenda to do so.   Not all numbers in the book of Revelation are symbolic.   You have to assign that value to make your agenda fit, which it doesn't. 

Agree with Shiloh , I was going to comment on this too,

The 144.000 are witnesses who will go out in the tribulation to preach the gospel all over the world

12.000 from each tribe of Israel Rev 7:14

 

 

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, numbers are symbolic when the text tells you they are symbolic.   Revelation does use some numbers symbolically.  But it also tells you when that is happening.   You don't get to apply symbolism arbitrarily when it suits your agenda to do so.   Not all numbers in the book of Revelation are symbolic.   You have to assign that value to make your agenda fit, which it doesn't. 

 

1 hour ago, angels4u said:

Agree with Shiloh , I was going to comment on this too,

The 144.000 are witnesses who will go out in the tribulation to preach the gospel all over the world

12.000 from each tribe of Israel Rev 7:14

 

 

 

 

 

I appreciate that is your opinion, and I would not deny you your right to hold it.

I have found through study that the reality is different, and that the apocalyptic genre requires all numbers to be understood as apocalyptic language and symbolically.

 

[SINNERSAVED]

2 hours ago, other one said:

Well, since you asked::::

 

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy
of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was
under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it
were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the
children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat
and drink.
KJV
John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent
me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in
the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore
that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not
that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath
seen the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.
Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from
Him.
So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of is not what that
the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the Old Testament.
Looking further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All
things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the
light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There
was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a
witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might
believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that
Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
KJV
John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a
devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man
keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom
makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is
nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is
your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should
say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him,
and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he
saw it, and was glad.
Trinity Thoughts
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel
interfaced with in the Old Testament days. Jesus in this form was with
the Father from the beginning.
It seems to me that the people of the Old Testament days were not aware
of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he
existed in before he became flesh.
Further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in
fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted
him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name
of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in
earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father
worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the Old Testament
times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the
Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the
Father on earth.
Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that
did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only
thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only
as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the
fleshly body.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the
very works' sake.
KJV
John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as
thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in
us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory
which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as
we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in
one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved
them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou
hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory,
which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of
the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I
have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I
have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love
wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for
the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the
Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the
Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man
came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he
hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are
put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then
shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and
authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus
will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to
Him........ The Father.
I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He
was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father
after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over
all and giving it to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are
offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the
world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be
that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods
many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom
are all things, and we by him.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But to us, there is but one God, The Father of whom all things
came from......
And one Lord, Jesus whom we call the Christ, through which all things
came including us.
And we have the Holy Spirit which was sent to us from the Father at the
request of Jesus.
Interestingly, all three are one in thought, one in purpose, and one in
action. We can't interface with the Father without being indwelt by
the Holy Spirit, and we can't have the Holy Spirit without the
sacrifice and request of Jesus, and we couldn't have had Jesus without
the Father asking Him to do what he has done for us.
You have to have all three or none. And thus they are one, and they all three are deity.

 

So there is a trinity.

 

I like that Otherone, you put what I said into scripture, and that was very good, thank you , and I believe we are on the same page on this, you have a great day ,and blessings to you brother,

[Guest shiloh357]

57 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

 

 

I appreciate that is your opinion, and I would not deny you your right to hold it.

I have found through study that the reality is different, and that the apocalyptic genre requires all numbers to be understood as apocalyptic language and symbolically.

 

It's not opinion, though.   You cannot demonstrate from the text of Revelation that EVERY number is symbolic.   You make a lot of wild, ridiculous claims, but in the end it's all just a bag of hot air.   42 months is not used symbolically at all. 

I would love to see you PROVE that 144,000 is just a symbolic number.   Show ONE place in the book of Revelation where it says that 144,000 is symbolic of something else.   You won't, because you can't.

 

[thereselittleflower]

9 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

It's not opinion, though.   You cannot demonstrate from the text of Revelation that EVERY number is symbolic.   You make a lot of wild, ridiculous claims, but in the end it's all just a bag of hot air.   42 months is not used symbolically at all. 

I would love to see you PROVE that 144,000 is just a symbolic number.   Show ONE place in the book of Revelation where it says that 144,000 is symbolic of something else.   You won't, because you can't.

 

I already have proven this by documenting the genre in the past. 

• Interpretation guidelines.

  As an example of interpretation methodology, let us examine some passages from the Revelation of John. While reading John’s Apocalypse we should keep in mind that,

   

  (1) it was written to Christians who had been undergoing long-term persecution (at least two-generations) with no hope for change;

  (2) it was written to give the author’s readers encouragement and purpose during this difficult time;

  (3) it uses symbolism (containing a lot of common idioms and metaphors) to describe the attributes of the person/place/thing being described rather than simply naming the person/place/thing described.

   

  This latter point becomes important as we look at the text. As one encounters images, think about what the symbolism might mean as applied to attributes of that which is described. Try to avoid attaching the symbols directly to the description. This is what makes the Revelation more of a challenge to read. We are not that familiar with how ancient Christians understood many of these symbols, though many are obvious. We are often left with the context of symbolic usage to formulate an explanation.

   

  Not all symbolism is lost to us. For example, numerology is used extensively in the Revelation to describe attributes. When numbers are encountered, try to ascertain the symbolism that was used for these numbers in their time. Some common applications of numerology include:

   

  3 ½: Half of 7, half of perfection, profound sin, incompletion.

  6: Short of perfection, sin. 666: Sin, repeated three times. Complete and pure sin. No evidence of good. Complete depravity.

  7: Perfection, completion of God’s task.

  12: Complete, complete assembly of God’s design. (12 tribes, 12 disciples.)

  40: Sufficient period of time for God to work His purpose for man.

  144: 12 times 12, ultimate completion

  1000: Largest known number. Used to signify an unimaginably large amount.

  144,000: 144 times 1000. A vast and complete/sufficient number.

   

  All Colors and literal objects are also used to symbolize attributes. For example:

   

  White: Purity

  Clear: Purity

  Red: God’s redeeming act, Jesus' blood.

  Crown: Authority over a domain or kingdom

  Green: Mercy, hope.

  Trumpet: A clear message.

  Throne: A position of power.

  Rainbow: God’s covenant.

  Jerusalem: The Church, the Bride of Christ

  New Jerusalem: The post-rapture, glorified Church

  Cubit: A measure by man’s standard.19

   

   

  http://www.biblicaltheology.com/Research/CarterJ08.pdf

   

   

  The above link is quite an extensive treatment of the apocalyptic genre and writings in scripture.

   

   

  The Book of Revelation was the first work to be called an apocalypse, and it exhibits the features that characterize such writings: A revelation from God concerning future events is delivered to a seer through an angelic or divine intermediary (in the case of Revelation, the intermediary is Jesus Christ and the seer is Saint John). The book also uses elaborate animal and numerological symbolism. Variations on these features are found in other apocalyptic writings—for example, the writings may describe many visions instead of only one; they may include specimens of other genres within them (for example, the epistle or the hymn, as in Revelation); and they may describe the destined events literally rather than figuratively.

   

  http://autocww.colorado.edu/~flc/E64ContentFiles/SacredScriptures/ApocalypticWritings.htm

   

   

   

   

  The Apocalypse: A Reading of the Revelation of John
   
  Fourth, apocalyptic literature employs certain compositional techniques in its writing: for example, symbolism, numerology, formalized surface structure, and recapitulation.  Each needs attention if understanding is to be attained.
   
  Apocalypses are written with a high level of symbolism.  Apocalyptic writings are addressed to the imagination.  Their intent is more to create an emotional impression than to give new informaiton.
   
   
  The language of the apocalypses is not descriptive, referential newspaper language, but the expressive language of poetry, which uses symbols and imagery to articulate a sense or feeling about the world.  Their binding value does not lie in the pseudoinformation they provide about the cosmology or future history, but in their affirmation of a transcendent world. 11
   
   
  ...Failure to take the highly symbolic character of apocalyptic into account virtually guarantees a misreading of the text.
   
  Revelation also reflects the symbolic use of numbers in antiquity. 12  The numer 1 conveys the idea of uniqueness  or indepence.  Number 2 stands for doubling of energy, strengthening, confirmation (Rev. 11:3).  Number 3 is a symbol for the divine (Rev. 1:4-5) or its counterfeit (rev. 16:13).  Number 4 is the cosmic number, derived from the four corners of the earth (Rev 7:1; 21:13).  The number 7 is the most sacred number.  It expresses completion, 4 (the earth) + 3 (the divine) (Rev. 1:11; 6:1; 8:6; 15:1).  To use seven of anything raises it above the level of the particular to the level of the general or universal.  ...  when 10 is multiplied by 10 the result indicates a great expanse of time (Rev 20:2).   In a document in which numbers are used extensively in this way, it is a misreading to take them otherwise.... The numbers in Revelation cannot be understood by assigning then real numerical value, not even as round numbers.  They are purely symbolic. 

   

  The Apocalypse: A Reading of the Revelation of John, pg 5-7

   By Charles H. Talbert

   

  Author:  https://www.baylor.edu/mediacommunications/news.php?action=story&story=50286

   

Given all this the burden to prove anything now rests with the one claiming that any particular number in The Apocalypse of John is actually literal rather than symbolic.  

As we have seen above, both the numbers  144 and 1000  -  144,000 is 144 x 1000 - are symbolic and together represent the ultimate completion of or involving an unimaginably large number.

 

 

 

 

[JohnD]

On 1/24/2016 at 4:01 PM, other one said:

Well, since you asked::::

 

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy
of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was
under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it
were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the
children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat
and drink.
KJV
John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent
me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in
the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore
that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not
that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath
seen the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.
Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from
Him.
So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of is not what that
the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the Old Testament.
Looking further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All
things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the
light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There
was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a
witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might
believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that
Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
KJV
John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a
devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man
keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom
makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is
nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is
your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should
say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him,
and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he
saw it, and was glad.
Trinity Thoughts
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel
interfaced with in the Old Testament days. Jesus in this form was with
the Father from the beginning.
It seems to me that the people of the Old Testament days were not aware
of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he
existed in before he became flesh.
Further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in
fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted
him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name
of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in
earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father
worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the Old Testament
times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the
Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the
Father on earth.
Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that
did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only
thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only
as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the
fleshly body.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the
very works' sake.
KJV
John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as
thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in
us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory
which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as
we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in
one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved
them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou
hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory,
which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of
the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I
have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I
have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love
wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for
the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the
Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the
Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man
came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he
hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are
put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then
shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and
authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus
will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to
Him........ The Father.
I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He
was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father
after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over
all and giving it to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are
offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the
world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be
that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods
many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom
are all things, and we by him.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But to us, there is but one God, The Father of whom all things
came from......
And one Lord, Jesus whom we call the Christ, through which all things
came including us.
And we have the Holy Spirit which was sent to us from the Father at the
request of Jesus.
Interestingly, all three are one in thought, one in purpose, and one in
action. We can't interface with the Father without being indwelt by
the Holy Spirit, and we can't have the Holy Spirit without the
sacrifice and request of Jesus, and we couldn't have had Jesus without
the Father asking Him to do what he has done for us.
You have to have all three or none. And thus they are one, and they all three are deity.

 

So there is a trinity.

 

Very well said!

 

[Ezra]

On 25/01/2016 at 6:08 PM, thereselittleflower said:

As we have seen above, both the numbers  144 and 1000  -  144,000 is 144 x 1000 - are symbolic and together represent the ultimate completion of or involving an unimaginably large number.

Such a lengthy post to reject the plain meaning of Scripture and substitute it with a fanciful interpretation (where anything can mean anything).

12,000 x 12 = 144,000. As plain as day.

[thereselittleflower]

4 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Such a lengthy post to reject the plain meaning of Scripture and substitute it with a fanciful interpretation (where anything can mean anything).

12,000 x 12 = 144,000. As plain as day.

 

Ezra, the word symbolic means what is symbolic is not to be given its plain meaning.   The Apocalyptic genre is symbolic.  Numbers in apocalyptic writings are symbolic.  They are not to be given their plain meaning.

 

 

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said:

Ezra, the word symbolic means what is symbolic is not to be given its plain meaning.   The Apocalyptic genre is symbolic.  Numbers in apocalyptic writings are symbolic.  They are not to be given their plain meaning.

I don't recall the apostle John telling us "Now this is apocalyptic genre, so please don't take anything literally. I am writing to confuse you thoroughly, since everything in Revelation is 'symbolic'".

All Scripture is to be taken in its plain literal sense, and the symbols will reveal themselves.  When angels blow trumpets, those are literal angels which blow literal trumpets. But when Mystery Babylon in called a harlot, we know that this is clearly a metaphor, and there is further elucidation to help us understand that clearly.

The fact that each of the 12 tribes of Israel is clearly identified, and out of each tribe 12,000 redeemed Jews are clearly identified, tells us that there is absolutely nothing symbolic here.  However, if you want to persist in your so-called "apocalytic genre" mode, then what does the Lord Jesus Christ in Revelation "symbolize"?

Back to the topic.  Is the Trinity "symbolic" or is it a fact? Just because the word "Trinity" is not found in Scripture does not mean that the reality of the Triune Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is not true.  Those who reject this doctrine cannot truly call themselves "Christians".

[thereselittleflower]

36 minutes ago, Ezra said:

I don't recall the apostle John telling us "Now this is apocalyptic genre, so please don't take anything literally. I am writing to confuse you thoroughly, since everything in Revelation is 'symbolic'".

 

He called it

"The APOCALYPSE of John"

That is how books of the Apocalyptic genre were titled.

 

Wycliffe's Bible (1382-1395) used "Apocalips"

Tyndale's Bible (1525) used "Revelation"

Coverdale's (1535) called it "The apocalips or revelacion of S. John"

Douay-Rheims (1582) uses just "Apocalypse".

 

In fact it wasn't until the King James version of the bible in 1611 did the name "Revelation" begin to predominate.