Daniel 8

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

you don't see the abomination of desolation with the antichrist defaming the rebuilt temple?  Say what?  Even Jesus said in Matthew 24:15, "when you see the abomination.......RUN!!!!!!!!"

please explain William. (Is this an early April fools joke?)

Daaaad, I've only said it about ten thousand times! You never listen to me (stomp stomp)...

1) There is no "The Antichrist." There will be a number of antichrists, including the Beast, False Prophet, and Son of Perdition.

2) No rebuilt Temple of the Lord, other than the one the Messiah will build.

3) Jesus was exactly right. "...when you see the AD standing in the Holy Place..." The Holy Place/topo hagio is a place, not a building. Presumably the former threshing floor of Ornan, but possibly generalized to the whole Temple Mount. The King of the North will "plant the tabernacles of his pavilion" there, Dan. 11:45, thereby "showing himself to be a god," 2 Thes. 2:4, and then the "time of trouble such as never was" = the Great Tribulation will commence, Dan. 12:1, Math. 24:21.

[Spock]

1 minute ago, WilliamL said:

Daaaad, I've only said it about ten thousand times! You never listen to me (stomp stomp)...

1) There is no "The Antichrist." There will be a number of antichrists, including the Beast, False Prophet, and Son of Perdition.

2) No rebuilt Temple of the Lord, other than the one the Messiah will build.

3) Jesus was exactly right. "...when you see the AD standing in the Holy Place..." The Holy Place/topo hagio is a place, not a building. Presumably the former threshing floor of Ornan, but possibly generalized to the whole Temple Mount. The King of the North will "plant the tabernacles of his pavilion" there, Dan. 11:45, thereby "showing himself to be a god," 2 Thes. 2:4, and then the "time of trouble such as never was" = the Great Tribulation will commence, Dan. 12:1, Math. 24:21.

So sad. Sigh! ????

[MorningGlory]

24 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Daaaad, I've only said it about ten thousand times! You never listen to me (stomp stomp)...

1) There is no "The Antichrist." There will be a number of antichrists, including the Beast, False Prophet, and Son of Perdition.

2) No rebuilt Temple of the Lord, other than the one the Messiah will build.

3) Jesus was exactly right. "...when you see the AD standing in the Holy Place..." The Holy Place/topo hagio is a place, not a building. Presumably the former threshing floor of Ornan, but possibly generalized to the whole Temple Mount. The King of the North will "plant the tabernacles of his pavilion" there, Dan. 11:45, thereby "showing himself to be a god," 2 Thes. 2:4, and then the "time of trouble such as never was" = the Great Tribulation will commence, Dan. 12:1, Math. 24:21.

What on earth?  I don't even know how stuff like the above comes about.  ????

[ARGOSY]

10 hours ago, Spock said:

Brother Argosy,

i don't know about this one.

three times God reminded us this "takes place in the time of the END..."  To me, the end is the last 7 years, Daniels 70th week, the time just before Christ's return. 

And then you have this from Daniel 8:

"...a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power."

i might say, okay, maybe it is all about Antiochus until I reach the middle of verse 25: "and take his stand against the Prince of princes."  Is this not Jesus?  If not, who is it?  "Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power."  What does this mean to you? Was Antiochus destroyed by non human power? 

Lay it on me bro.

spock being patient

 

Israel was involved in many wars but this happened to all nations but not for religious purposes.   Its another thing altogether to deliberately take on God Himself.   To deliberately desecrate God's temple and to deliberately try and turn Jews away from Judaism and to serve Zeus is a direct attack on the Prince of Princes (God, the Lord/the trinity). To replace faithful priests with corrupt Hellenistic priests is a direct warfare against God Himself. The wars of Egypt/Assyria/Babylon were never as religiously motivated. Antiochus IV was the first to take on the true religion so directly.

He died from worms. Quite gruesomely apparently. He stank, his flesh fell off, and they even came out of his eyes.

I'm not sure about 3 times , I just see the two times:

17 Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.

¹⁹ And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

 

I would say that v17 is showing how this prophecy has a double fulfilment, Antiochus being a forerunner to the end times.

v19 it just depends on which translation that you use. Some translations are just saying that the time is appointed for the indignation to end. Something we already know about because the appointed time for the indignationto end is after 2300 "evenings and mornings"

 

[Kan]

21 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

 

... the appointed time for the indignation to end is after 2300 "evenings and mornings"

 

"The time of the end" (as opposed to the end of time) is before the end of the 2300 days/years. The time line/frame fits into the 2300, like all of the time lines in Daniel and Revelation.

[ARGOSY]

10 hours ago, Spock said:

One more thing brother Argosy,

what proof do you have Antiochus stopped sacrifices for precisely 1150 days? Thanks.

spock

 

This event occurred during a time when the Greeks dominated the region, therefore the Greek Calendar is best. The book of Maccabees dates both the beginning and end of that period:

I Maccabees 1:54 says:"On the 15th day of the 9th month of the 145th year [of the kingdom of the Greeks] king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God."

 I Mac. 4:52,53 "And they arose before the morning of the 25th day of the 9th month of the 148th year, and they offered sacrifices according to the law upon the new altar...

That describes 3 years 10 days. Herodotus describes a Greek year as alternating between 360 days and 390 days. 

390+360+390+10= 1150 days

 

[ARGOSY]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daaaad, I've only said it about ten thousand times! You never listen to me (stomp stomp)...

1) There is no "The Antichrist." There will be a number of antichrists, including the Beast, False Prophet, and Son of Perdition.

2) No rebuilt Temple of the Lord, other than the one the Messiah will build.

3) Jesus was exactly right. "...when you see the AD standing in the Holy Place..." The Holy Place/topo hagio is a place, not a building. Presumably the former threshing floor of Ornan, but possibly generalized to the whole Temple Mount. The King of the North will "plant the tabernacles of his pavilion" there, Dan. 11:45, thereby "showing himself to be a god," 2 Thes. 2:4, and then the "time of trouble such as never was" = the Great Tribulation will commence, Dan. 12:1, Math. 24:21.

1) I agree that there are many antichrists. The bible is clear on that. Not only that, but Jesus in Matthew 24 warns us of false Messiahs. not just one. Note the PLURAL.  But of course there will be one dominant false messiah during the great tribulation.

(So let's watch out for the antichrist killing another antichrist. Wont he just look like Jesus himself if he does that!!   I suspect that is exactly what will happen. Islamic prophecy even predicts these two characters, with ISA killing DAJJAL)

Where I do disagree is that Rev 13 is clear that the beast/antichrist will dominate for the last 42 months , and the false prophet will be focussed on giving the beast power. So during the final great tribulation there is ONLY ONE final antichrist as described in Rev 13 and 2 Thess 2 (and Daniel 11:36-45).   And so although you speak some truth here, still there is only one Satanic inspired antichrist who shall rule during the last 42 months

2) I agree that the bible does not even mention a rebuilt temple.  2 Thessalonians 2, the often quoted source for a rebuilt temple refers to the anticrist being at the "most holy place" of God  (according to the Greek) , which as you say could refer to the temple mount and not necessarily a rebuilt temple. But Ezekiel refers to a temple that is already built BUT requires cleansing.   I suspect that Christians are going to help the antichrist build an evil temple in a misguided attempt to help the Jews and build our own Tower of Babel just before the great tribulation. This temple will be cleansed during the millenium as per the temple cleansing of Ezekiel chapters 42-44

3) Correct!  When we see the abomination, the great tribulation will start. 

 

And so you certainly are not as far out as the others claim. I can see significant agreement there.

[Spock]

11 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daaaad, I've only said it about ten thousand times! You never listen to me (stomp stomp)...

1) There is no "The Antichrist." There will be a number of antichrists, including the Beast, False Prophet, and Son of Perdition.

2) No rebuilt Temple of the Lord, other than the one the Messiah will build.

3) Jesus was exactly right. "...when you see the AD standing in the Holy Place..." The Holy Place/topo hagio is a place, not a building. Presumably the former threshing floor of Ornan, but possibly generalized to the whole Temple Mount. The King of the North will "plant the tabernacles of his pavilion" there, Dan. 11:45, thereby "showing himself to be a god," 2 Thes. 2:4, and then the "time of trouble such as never was" = the Great Tribulation will commence, Dan. 12:1, Math. 24:21.

Ok, now that I've come out of the corner for not listening to you, here are my thoughts on these three points.  Actually, brother Argosy stole them, but just so you know, here are mine:

1. When I say antichrist, I mean the beast pursuant to Rev 13 and Rev 19, see below:

 20But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

2. You may be right, but I assume if sacrifices will be reinstituted and the beast will do his abomination thing, it will be much like Antiochus. I won't make a big deal though (small potatoes). I just believe strongly this will happen and is very important because the GT commences here.

3. See point two.  We both agree, the GT will commence at the abomination. 

Are we good now, William? Have you forgiven me yet?  Lol

a bruised Spock 

[Spock]

1 hour ago, ARGOSY said:

 

This event occurred during a time when the Greeks dominated the region, therefore the Greek Calendar is best. The book of Maccabees dates both the beginning and end of that period:

I Maccabees 1:54 says:"On the 15th day of the 9th month of the 145th year [of the kingdom of the Greeks] king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God."

 I Mac. 4:52,53 "And they arose before the morning of the 25th day of the 9th month of the 148th year, and they offered sacrifices according to the law upon the new altar...

That describes 3 years 10 days. Herodotus describes a Greek year as alternating between 360 days and 390 days. 

390+360+390+10= 1150 days

 

Wow, pretty interesting stuff brother.  I'm not saying I buy it because I don't, but at least you have some support to make that statement. Although going back and forth using 390 and 360 looks to be a stretch to me if you want to know. It seems forced. And since when do we use the Greek calendar for any interpretation?  You know what calendar God uses, so I definitely can't buy this on that basis alone. 

Vut I will give you some props for having some basis, albeit, a very very small one.

spock

[Spock]

2 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

 

Israel was involved in many wars but this happened to all nations but not for religious purposes.   Its another thing altogether to deliberately take on God Himself.   To deliberately desecrate God's temple and to deliberately try and turn Jews away from Judaism and to serve Zeus is a direct attack on the Prince of Princes (God, the Lord/the trinity). To replace faithful priests with corrupt Hellenistic priests is a direct warfare against God Himself. The wars of Egypt/Assyria/Babylon were never as religiously motivated. Antiochus IV was the first to take on the true religion so directly.

He died from worms. Quite gruesomely apparently. He stank, his flesh fell off, and they even came out of his eyes.

I'm not sure about 3 times , I just see the two times:

17 Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.

¹⁹ And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

 

I would say that v17 is showing how this prophecy has a double fulfilment, Antiochus being a forerunner to the end times.

v19 it just depends on which translation that you use. Some translations are just saying that the time is appointed for the indignation to end. Something we already know about because the appointed time for the indignationto end is after 2300 "evenings and mornings"

 

Brother,

oh yeah, thanks for reminding me how Antichus died- by disease. I forgot. Ok, I will give you that one.

as for the other point you made, my gut tells me to reject your logic.  I cannot accept your interpretation you set forth regarding a direct attack on the Prince of princes. You may be right, but my gut is usually pretty accurate, and I'm seeing Jesus, and the end of end times on this one. I'm seeing this dude as the beast of rev 13, not Antiochus.  Thus, I see a near far application being given to us in Daniel 7/8. 

My third basis for making this end time was verse 23:. “In the latter part of their reign...."

i interpret this to mean at the very end, not just at the end of Alexander the Greats reign. Notice, the nations that made up the Greecian Dynasty are still present. They will rise again which will be the latter part of their reign. 

Spock's is in the house