Daniel 8

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, Last Daze said:

How do you support 5 when the prophecy only speaks of 4?

Hi Last daze,

Mmmm.... not meaning to be cheeky here, but I can count,

1. Babylon - judged & gone.

2. Medes & Persians - judged & gone.

3. Greece - judged & gone.

4. Rome - judged & gone.

5. The divided kingdom - still to come.

 

Is that helpful, as per my view?  Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last daze,

Mmmm.... not meaning to be cheeky here, but I can count,

1. Babylon - judged & gone.

2. Medes & Persians - judged & gone.

3. Greece - judged & gone.

4. Rome - judged & gone.

5. The divided kingdom - still to come.

 

Is that helpful, as per my view?  Marilyn.

I understand where you, and everyone else, get the five kingdoms from.  However, the prophecy only mentions four.   That's the point I'm curious about.  How does four become interpreted as five, scripturally?

• This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king.  You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.   After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.  Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.  In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.  Daniel 2:36-41

There is a clear delineation between these kingdoms as noted by the colored text.  There is no such distinction that introduces a "fifth" kingdom.  This prophecy views the feet of iron and clay as belonging to the fourth kingdom.

The reason for this, in my estimation, is that the evil angel "prince of Rome" had his efforts interrupted by being cast into the abyss, probably during the first century, as the gospel went forth.  An extension of life was given to Rome even after its dominion [prince] was removed (Daniel 7:12).  At some point, this prince was to be released (Revelation 17:8), which I believe he has at the first seal, and continue his fourth kingdom, which is described as the feet of iron and clay.

I bring this up here Spock because it demonstrates an important difference in perspective.  From God's omniscient viewpoint, these kingdoms are brought about by four distinct "princes" (Daniel 10), each one having their own "kingdom".  From our natural perspective, we see the fourth kingdom as having two distinct manifestations separated by time.  It's the difference between seeing the cause (prince) and the effect (Rome & U.N.)

I also see that as explaining why part of Daniel 8 is past and part is future.  It's the same reason that part of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 2 is past and part of it is future.  It's a matter of perspective, the eternal unseen and the temporary seen.

[WilliamL]

8 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

From our natural perspective, we see the fourth kingdom as having two distinct manifestations separated by time.  It's the difference between seeing the cause (prince) and the effect (Rome & U.N.)

I also see that as explaining why part of Daniel 8 is past and part is future.  It's the same reason that part of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 2 is past and part of it is future.  It's a matter of perspective, the eternal unseen and the temporary seen.

Although I don't agree with all of your points (such as the spiritual ruler of Rome being cast into the Abyss), I do agree with the principles stated here. Parts of Daniel 7 and 8 are past history, but other parts continue into the future.

Nation-spirits never die, but they can be suppressed by and lose power to other nation-spirits. Also, they can alter their modes of manifestation to suit the times. All of the four beasts of Daniel 7 exist today, and all of them existed anciently.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Although I don't agree with all of your points (such as the spiritual ruler of Rome being cast into the Abyss), I do agree with the principles stated here. Parts of Daniel 7 and 8 are past history, but other parts continue into the future.

Nation-spirits never die, but they can be suppressed by and lose power to other nation-spirits. Also, they can alter their modes of manifestation to suit the times. All of the four beasts of Daniel 7 exist today, and all of them existed anciently.

I'm not inferring that immortal beings "die".  Evil spirit beings can be arrested and thrown into jail (the abyss) so as to effectively suppress their influence.

• Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.  And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.  Revelation 20:1-3
• When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.  Revelation 20:7-8

This clearly supports evil spirit beings being cast into the abyss so as to not exert influence.  It's scriptural.  The abyss is a restrainer that restrains the influence that evil spirit beings have among men.

The reason I say the prince of Rome was cast into the abyss is because when John penned Revelation, this statement was true.

• The beast that you saw was [and spawned Rome], and is not [cast into abyss], and is about to come up out of the abyss [to spawn the U.N.] and go to destruction.  Revelation 17:8

As I see it, the reason Jesus' first words concerning the end times were "See to it that no one misleads you" is because the first seal releases the beast (and associates) from the abyss where they can go and deceive the nations.  The restrainer is no longer restraining and the deception of wickedness  permeates the world like we've seen in the past several decades and continue to see.

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I understand where you, and everyone else, get the five kingdoms from.  However, the prophecy only mentions four.   That's the point I'm curious about.  How does four become interpreted as five, scripturally?

• This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king.  You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.   After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.  Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.  In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.  Daniel 2:36-41

There is a clear delineation between these kingdoms as noted by the colored text.  There is no such distinction that introduces a "fifth" kingdom.  This prophecy views the feet of iron and clay as belonging to the fourth kingdom.

The reason for this, in my estimation, is that the evil angel "prince of Rome" had his efforts interrupted by being cast into the abyss, probably during the first century, as the gospel went forth.  An extension of life was given to Rome even after its dominion [prince] was removed (Daniel 7:12).  At some point, this prince was to be released (Revelation 17:8), which I believe he has at the first seal, and continue his fourth kingdom, which is described as the feet of iron and clay.

I bring this up here Spock because it demonstrates an important difference in perspective.  From God's omniscient viewpoint, these kingdoms are brought about by four distinct "princes" (Daniel 10), each one having their own "kingdom".  From our natural perspective, we see the fourth kingdom as having two distinct manifestations separated by time.  It's the difference between seeing the cause (prince) and the effect (Rome & U.N.)

I also see that as explaining why part of Daniel 8 is past and part is future.  It's the same reason that part of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 2 is past and part of it is future.  It's a matter of perspective, the eternal unseen and the temporary seen.

Hi Last Daze,

Yes the first 4 kingdoms are named - 1st, 2nd, etc however in language you don`t always have to say the 5th, as it is understood.

`This image`s

- head was of fine gold,

- its chest & arms of silver,

- its belly & thighs of bronze,

- its legs of iron,

- its feet partly of iron & partly of clay. ` (Dan. 2: 32 & 33)

 

Quite clearly there are 5 sections of the body mentioned there.

 

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

 

Now to this point. You said -

`From our natural perspective, we see the fourth kingdom as having two distinct manifestations separated by time. `

We need to realise that God made authority positions & He judges those who are in those positions.

`God has numbered your kingdom & finished it;...` (Dan. 5: 26)

When God judges the ruler & the government of that kingdom, then it is `finished.` It cannot resurrect itself or be partly gone. All those individual world rulers & their governments have been judged by God & are gone, gone, gone, no more to rise. The final Gentile leader & his government will also be judged by heaven`s court.

`the court sat, & they shall take away his dominion, to consume & destroy it for ever.` (Dan. 7: 26)

 

Also, Rome (now) is not -

- `different from all the beasts that were before it..`

- `dreadful & terrible, exceedingly strong....devouring, braking in pieces, & trampling the residue with its feet.` (Dan 7: 7)

 

However it is quite clear who that is talking about, & you only have to watch the news to see it happening regularly.

 

Marilyn. 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Yes the first 4 kingdoms are named - 1st, 2nd, etc however in language you don`t always have to say the 5th, as it is understood.

`This image`s

- head was of fine gold,

- its chest & arms of silver,

- its belly & thighs of bronze,

- its legs of iron,

- its feet partly of iron & partly of clay. ` (Dan. 2: 32 & 33)

 

Quite clearly there are 5 sections of the body mentioned there.

 

Marilyn.

 

I don't disagree.  There are quite clearly only four kingdoms mentioned too.    The fourth spiritual entity produces two natural kingdoms.

[WilliamL]

6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I'm not inferring that immortal beings "die".  Evil spirit beings can be arrested and thrown into jail (the abyss) so as to effectively suppress their influence.

I entirely agree.

6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The reason I say the prince of Rome was cast into the abyss is because when John penned Revelation, this statement was true.

• The beast that you saw was [and spawned Rome], and is not [cast into abyss], and is about to come up out of the abyss [to spawn the U.N.] and go to destruction.  Revelation 17:8

As I see it, the reason Jesus' first words concerning the end times were "See to it that no one misleads you" is because the first seal releases the beast (and associates) from the abyss where they can go and deceive the nations.  The restrainer is no longer restraining and the deception of wickedness  permeates the world like we've seen in the past several decades and continue to see.

This is where we disagree. The Beast of this verse is the 7-headed, 10 horned beast John saw. The spiritual ruler of Rome was one of the heads of that Beast:

Rev. 17:9 The seven heads ... 10 are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is [that is, Rome, the 6th head of the Beast],  and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

As far as when the Abyss is opened, that does not take place until the 5th Trumpet, as we are told in Rev. 9:

9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit...

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

God has numbered your kingdom & finished it;...` (Dan. 5: 26)

When God judges the ruler & the government of that kingdom, then it is `finished.`

This message was specifically to Belshazzar by name about his throne, not to the spiritual ruler of the Babylonian nation. The context of Dan. 5 is clear about this.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

This message was specifically to Belshazzar by name about his throne, not to the spiritual ruler of the Babylonian nation. The context of Dan. 5 is clear about this.

Hi WilliamL,

Thank you for that detail. However I did realise it, & just used it as an example of God judging the world ruler & his government. Since the other rulers & their governments have gone we know that God has dealt with them. Then there is the final Gentile Ruler & his Government to manifest & then be judged, (as we all know).

Marilyn.