The beast that goes into Perdition

[Serving]

22 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

Let's take what you said.

You said:

1.  

Jesus did not say he has a God.    Jesus  said   "YOUR God"   He didn't say  "MY God."    He said "MY FATHER."

You said

•  

Psalm 45:7 is not directly calling Jesus God.   IT's not directly about Jesus at all.    Who is it about?  It's about a king and his marriage.  Look at verse 10

•   7You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
              Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
              With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

        8All Your garments are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;
              Out of ivory palaces stringed instruments have made You glad.

        9Kings’ daughters are among Your noble ladies;
              At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir.

        10Listen, O daughter, give attention and incline your ear:
              Forget your people and your father’s house;

        11Then the King will desire your beauty.
              Because He is your Lord, bow down to Him.

"O daughter" is the one the king is in verse 7  is marrying.   It is not about Jesus, it is about a marriage.

The heading for this Psalm is

• A Song Celebrating the King’s Marriage.                           
  For the choir director; according to the Shoshannim. A Maskil of the sons of Korah. A Song of Love.

As this commentary states:

• Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

  hath anointed thee &c.] The reference is not to anointing as the symbol of consecration to the office of king, but to the use of oil on occasions of festivity (Psalm 23:5; Psalm 104:15). Thus ‘the oil of gladness’ is contrasted with mourning (Isaiah 61:3 : cp. 2 Samuel 12:20; 2 Samuel 14:2). The rejoicings of the marriage festival are meant. Cp. Song of Solomon 3:11.

• Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
  (7) The oil of gladness.—Comp. “oil of joy,” Isaiah 61:3. Here too it may be merely employed as a figure of happiness, but the bath and, no doubt, subsequent anointing, formed part of the Oriental marriage proceedings. (See Arabian Nights, passim.)

  Fellows—i.e., the paranymphs, or attendants on the bridegroom.

And yes, In Hebrews Paul applies these words to Jesus in a spiritual sense.

He applies verse 6

• 6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

to Jesus as God.

He applies verse 7 to Jesus:

• 7You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
              Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
              With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

 

But not like you are.

Commentaries in relating this to Christ make it clear that it is only to Christ's HUMAN NATURE this applies.  Not to His Divine Nature.

• Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
  7. As in Ps 45:6 the divine nature is made prominent, here the moral qualities of the human are alleged as the reason or ground of the mediatorial exultation. Some render "O God, thy God," instead of

  God, thy God—but the latter is sustained by the same form (Ps 50:7), and it was only of His human nature that the anointing could be predicated (compare Isa 61:3).

• Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
  7. Thou lovest &c.] Or, as R.V., Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness. “I have loved justice and hated iniquity, and therefore I die in exile” were the last memorable words of Gregory VII. Milman, Hist. of Lat. Christianity, iv. 138.
  
  therefore] The willing conformity of the king to the will of God is rewarded with special tokens of His favour.
  
  God, thy God] The rendering, O God, thy God is unquestionably wrong. God, thy God in the Elohistic Psalms is the equivalent of Jehovah thy God elsewhere. Cp. Psalm 43:4; Psalm 50:7.
   

"God, thy God" is an emphatic way of referring to God.  "God, thy God" is the King's God.   In reference to Jesus, as Paul used it, again, is about his relationship to God the Father in his human nature, not His divine nature.

 

You are simply twisting God's word serving.   You are proof texting to strip the scriptures of their intended meaning and giving them a different one.

You say you believe Jesus is God, but then treat him as inferior to God the Father?

Jesus is God, yes.

But HOW is He God?

Is He separate from God the Father so there are TWO Gods?

 

Let me ask you this?

Do you believe

• There is one God
• One Being,
• Three Persons -
•  - God the Father,
•  - God the Son
•  - and God the Holy Spirit
• All Three Persons are
• - Co Equal
• - Co Eternally Pre-existing

 

????

 

You know, I'm a very fair guy, but I'm shaking my head in disbelief at your/their explanations .. it is criminal, absolutely no respect to the written word at all.

I mean, EVEN a secular English teacher unfortunate enough to read your/their "explanations" would be shocked at such blatant word twisting of the English language going on in there .. I mean, It can only be described as DELIBERATE misrepresentation .. and that gets me angry.

I will force myself to answer you tomorrow.

 

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎04‎/‎02‎/‎2016 at 6:57 PM, thereselittleflower said:

A "spiritual body" does not mean we discard our human bodies.

It means our human bodies are redeemed and changed, but they are still human bodies.   

We do not lose our humanity by becoming Christians. 

Our humanity is redeemed, BODY and SOUL.

This is why our bodies are resurrected.   They are not left behind.  THEY ARE REDEEMED.

Romans 8:18-25

• I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

 

Jesus did not leave His human body behind either.  The body Jesus has in heaven is fully human.

The 'spiritual body' Christ was raised with has flesh and bones just as He said it does and demonstrated to his disciples it does.

This fully human, 'spiritual body' Christ was raised with, the same body he died with, that still had flesh and bones, could pass through walls, appear and disappear at will, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Therese ,  I have to hand it to you ,this is without doubt the clearest and most complete understanding of theology of Christ and His personhood ,body and spirit . I will reread it, to clarify and remember .  I take it too ,that this the RCC theology on the subject .

[thereselittleflower]

3 hours ago, Serving said:

 

You know, I'm a very fair guy, but I'm shaking my head in disbelief at your/their explanations .. it is criminal, absolutely no respect to the written word at all.

I mean, EVEN a secular English teacher unfortunate enough to read your/their "explanations" would be shocked at such blatant word twisting of the English language going on in there .. I mean, It can only be described as DELIBERATE misrepresentation .. and that gets me angry.

I will force myself to answer you tomorrow.

 

• "Even a SECULAR ENGLISH TEACHER - twisting of the ENGLISH LANGUAGE."

 

 

This is your FIRST mistake.

 

The scriptures were not written in English.

 

They were written in Hebrew and Greek.

 

Hebrew and Greek are in a completely different Language Family than English.

 

As such it is impossible to carry every sense of many words from Hebrew and Greek over into English.

 

I am using English translations because that is what we read, BUT I do not limit my understanding to what the ENGLISH translations say.  I look at what it means in the Hebrew or Greek, what idioms they used, figures of speech, etc.

 

You have wrongly limited yourself to the English language.

[thereselittleflower]

3 hours ago, Thallasa said:

Therese ,  I have to hand it to you ,this is without doubt the clearest and most complete understanding of theology of Christ and His personhood ,body and spirit . I will reread it, to clarify and remember .  I take it too ,that this the RCC theology on the subject .

Thank you Thallasa - I did not expect anyone to say anything like that.  I am truly happy it was helpful to you.

[MorningGlory]

On 2/8/2016 at 9:02 PM, FresnoJoe said:

Men Have Man Caves (Why Did You Think We Invented Basements)
Woman Have Everything Else~!

  Oh, yeah.  I forgot that!

[Spock]

17 hours ago, gdemoss said:

I thank God for you.  Good exercise in humility.  I reread the passage again believing I may be wrong.  Especially because Ezra agreed.  But I still see the same thing.  It reads to me as if it is about hair as a covering.  Thank you for your concern but I can't help the way it reads to me.

I love this moss....nice!  Glad you are growing in grace and humility here.

 

[Guest Thallasa]

6 hours ago, Serving said:

 

You know, I'm a very fair guy, but I'm shaking my head in disbelief at your/their explanations .. it is criminal, absolutely no respect to the written word at all.

I mean, EVEN a secular English teacher unfortunate enough to read your/their "explanations" would be shocked at such blatant word twisting of the English language going on in there .. I mean, It can only be described as DELIBERATE misrepresentation .. and that gets me angry.

I will force myself to answer you tomorrow.

 

The English language did not exist  when the bible was written or compiled . It is a mongrel language having developed over a long time from many sources . Unlike Latin, French, Basque ,Latin (and possibly Greek) ,there is a continual adding ad hoc to the language . 

 

[MorningGlory]

On 2/8/2016 at 6:56 AM, Serving said:

 

To ask that, (excusing my bluntness) .. you obviously don't understand the mystery of the Word yet .. look at some of these clues :

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus said plainly that HE HAS A GOD .. of course THE WORD has a God, otherwise He could never be the Word of God.

Now what was said concerning CHRIST through the Psalmist :

Psalms 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

There you go, GOD HIMSELF ANOINTED Jesus and called Him God .. simply put. And if God the Father says Jesus IS GOD, then as far as I am concerned, Jesus IS God. But you NEED to understand WHAT that really MEANS.

Now listen to what the Father COMMANDED to His angels concerning HIS SON :

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Now, if you still think it was the Father who literally came down  and not His word as it is written (the Father Himself coming down literally in the flesh is ERROR originated from Catholic teaching in gross misunderstanding), nevertheless, ask yourself HOW this can be IF you were right, which you are not :

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

WHY is it Jesus does NOT know?? .. YET you are saying that Jesus is God as though Jesus is the Father ?? Jesus is the WORD OF GOD .. He comes FROM the FATHER, and the Father is IN Him, and He is IN the Father, only understanding the mystery of the Word do ALL scriptures like these make 100% sense.

And if you can not understand the mystery of the word, then you will never understand this either :

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Nor this :

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Let alone comprehend this one :

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

NO MAN can reveal the mystery of the Word .. ONLY God can .. if you do not understand it yet, then it is not yet given to you and we need not argue on something I can NEVER EVER reveal to you, sure you might grasp it, but only God can reveal it so you can SEE it for yourself .. I only grasped the concept for exactly one year until God finally allowed me to SEE it clearly and without resistance.

There is no other way to know it, which is what this really means :

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 

 

I have to interject here.  Why are you going on about a 'mystery'?  God didn't make Scripture a mystery at all.  Any reasonable human being can understand it by reading it.  Making the Bible some kind of whodunit is silly.  Scripture was meant to reveal, not conceal.  No one needs a guru or a road map, only Scripture itself. 

[Ezra]

There you go, GOD HIMSELF ANOINTED Jesus and called Him God .. simply put. And if God the Father says Jesus IS GOD, then as far as I am concerned, Jesus IS God. But you NEED to understand WHAT that really MEANS.

 [/quote]

What it means in plain English (or any other language) is that Jesus is God.  That the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God.  If you do not accept that in its plain sense, then you reject the Deity of Christ. 

[Serving]

7 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

• "Even a SECULAR ENGLISH TEACHER - twisting of the ENGLISH LANGUAGE."

 

Quote

This is your FIRST mistake.

 

The scriptures were not written in English.

 

They were written in Hebrew and Greek.

I never claimed they weren't so HOW is this "my first mistake"??

Trying the old famous bait & switch tactic are we?

Quote

Hebrew and Greek are in a completely different Language Family than English.

Well who'd have thought?? (rolling eyes)

Quote

As such it is impossible to carry every sense of many words from Hebrew and Greek over into English.

Well, well .. THANK YOU for the above admission .. that actually HURTS your case .. very badly in fact .. and the solution to this quandary? God solved the problem by releasing His word GLOBALLY in 1611, and for the first time in history HE gave ALL mankind the COMPLETED word (BOTH Testaments) in what is known as the Holy Bible .. NOW His Word was available to ANY person to personally possess the written and COMPLETED word (BOTH Testaments) all laid out and TRANSLATED CORRECTLY by INSPIRATION of the Holy Ghost, into ONE language HE KNEW was to eventually be the UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE of the LAST DAYS .. His CHOSEN authoritive LANGUAGE to put an end to the translating GAME which breeds CONTRADICTIONS .. He CHOSE the English Language .. so all you who play these language games where ANY meaning can be interchanged AT WHIM .. well .. HE has FREED us from those types .. get over it.

SAME reason He had His word temporarily recorded in the Greek with the New Testament, temporarily because Greek was the universal language of it's TIME .. but God FORESAW that ENGLISH was the NEXT GLOBAL LANGUAGE and so HE had His written Word recorded in ENGLISH, and HE did the INSPIRING as to the CORRECT MEANINGS / INTERPRETAIONS of the translated word into HIS INTENDED LANGUAGE HE CHOSE for it to be CORRECTLY TRANSLATED into, so mankind would be FREE from the scholars who love to speak God's words for Him and demand we pay homage to their divine wisdom like good little sheep where all your translation games means ANY MAN can make ANY WORD mean ANYTHING THEY WANT IT TO by using the Hebrew or the Greek as though they were more authoritive than God's chosen language HE CHOSE to CONFIRM every words MEANINGs .. HE freed us from people like you who say, "yea, did God say" .. sound familiar? .. the garden perhaps? .. er .. no thanks, I will stick to the ENGLISH which is the AUTHORITY over the Hebrew & the Greek whether you like it or not. BTW : ONLY 80% of the Hebrew language was SAVED .. that means 20% was RE-INVENTED .. so what do you do about THAT in regards to ACCURACY? (speaking about the ancient Hebrew BOX style of writing)

Quote

I am using English translations because that is what we read, BUT I do not limit my understanding to what the ENGLISH translations say.  I look at what it means in the Hebrew or Greek, what idioms they used, figures of speech, etc.

Then you will never understand properly and will just sow confusion & contradictions .. just like ALL the new translations BESIDES the KJV, not ONE of them AGREE with each other, WHY? Because people like you can read a verse and say, "Oh, I don't LIKE that" .. and go to the Greek and take ONE word which Greek words can have up to SIX MEANINGS EACH and CHANGE the WHOLE MEANING of a verse to suit personal agendas .. that is, people like you can CHANGE the written word at will, and you guys think you are CORRECTING "God's sloppy mistakes" .. how proud and presumptuous.

..."and both shall fall into the ditch".

Quote

 

You have wrongly limited yourself to the English language.

No, you have wrongly fallen for the deception that started in the garden, "Yea, did God say" .. enter all the contradictory bible translations ..  none of your lot believe God preserved His written word as promised, so you guys can apparently come along and save us from all the confusion your lot started in the first place with all your contradictory bible versions .. thanks for making God an AUTHOR of CONFUSION.

My advice, STOP meddling with the already laid out and confirmed written word and learn English properly if you want to understand what God meant in the Hebrew & the Greek.