Different denominations working together for community service...

[enoob57]

4 hours ago, Butero said:

That doesn't apply here because Hawkeye said these are not essential issues to her.  It should be easier for her to move than them.

I suppose this is what God means in greatness

Mark 10:43 (KJV)

[43] But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

[44] And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

[45] For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

 

[ayin jade]

7 hours ago, Butero said:

I think I have a solution for you Hawkeye if your true intent is to find a way to work with other churches.  If your intent here is just to stir strife and hope others will join with you in attacking churches that won't work with yours, I find that a waste of time, but if you are about working together for the common good, here is how you can do it.

You know for instance that these other churches won't work with yours because of various issues.  If you love Jesus so much, and these people that are in need, all you have to do is go to the church leaders and find out what changes your church has to make in order to find acceptance with them where you can work together.  Show your love by giving things up.  If you wear pants and the church down the road thinks that is an abomination, to show your love for Jesus and to reach these people in need of light bulbs, don't wear pants.  If another church believes you must baptize by emersion and your church sprinkles, start baptizing by emersion.  If another church thinks you need real wine for communion and yours uses grape juice, use real wine.  (Of course, if you are serving to minors, I would suggest using wine where the alcohol was removed to keep out of legal trouble.)  You know they won't change because they find these things critical, but you have said they are not essential to you.  As such, it comes down to how much love you have for the people in your community.  Do you love them enough to change yourself, or is this simply about getting all the people at WB to start bashing others as legalistic?  What are the motives in your heart?  I would bet that if your church made simple changes, you could join forces as you say you want to do and do all kinds of great things in your community.  You can't make others change, but you can. 

I know hawk didnt mean this just to stir up strife. It was a discussion we had in chat over something that concerns her and her church in attempts to reach out to other churches in the area to help the less fortunate in the community. 

Second, wearing pants versus skirts may not be a big deal to any church, but supporting a church that is legalistic might be a big deal. So to go out of ones way to wear a skirt or dress only, or to immerse in order to appease the legalists might be non negotiable.

[bfloydo]

 

1 hour ago, The_Patriot2016 said:

I see what your saying, I'm just saying that if its a case of doctrine such as baptism, which hawk did bring up, that is a core belief, and I wouldn't be involved in a ministry with them for that. If its not a core belief then I have no issue with working with other denominations, and often do. There are certain things I will do with other denominations, such as fellowship with them, but I won't minister alongside them if their core doctrines are blatantly contrary to the Bible. 

That is it in a nutshell.  I would have problems with working directly with a church if there was a major difference on an issue I find important.  You are right about baptism, in that it was always done by immersion.  I think there have been enough answers in this thread to hopefully help Hawkeye understand why the can't we just get along and work together idea doesn't work. 

 

  I humbly submit the following questions that I ask myself concerning this thread. These are questions, not judgments. A question involves reflection in ones self to get an answer. As I reflected, I used only the words and actions of Jesus and God. I do this because, almost immediately after Jesus death conflict began within the ranks of the apostles. Conflict from acceptable food, circumcision, faith in resurrection, ect. ... I am a very simple man, and try to learn from the words that should not be corrupt by any means save - man changing them, or wrong translations.

 Was Jesus involved and work with people and groups that did not align with with his beliefs? How many times did Jesus give instructions to  " Go get baptized " ? Baptism with the Holy Ghost Mark 1:8 .. Baptism of John Math. 20: 22&23 ? If a person gets baptized just to fit in with a group, what has he accomplished? Are there different Baptisms acceptable to God? Is being fully immersed or sprinkled with water really that important? If a man dying in the desert alone, confesses his sins and asks forgiveness with all his heart and soul,. is he rejected because he was not baptized?

 If all things are possible with God, how can man claim before God .... this alone is the absolute path for all ?

 Draw a circle and in the middle put a dot ( symbolizing God ). Now envision 2 people with very strong conviction, starting down the path God has set before them. One man starts from the far north of the circle, the other the far south. As they near the ultimate goal of reaching God, they see one another .... each tries his best to convince the other he is going the wrong way !! Both men have stalled on the path, Wanting to be certain of their own path and that the other does not become a lost sheep. After months with lots of back and forth movements( concessions ), they become very frustrated with God ... as God has not answered their prayers to help convince the other poor fellow of his wrong way on the path, as they where certain there could be only one right direction. Finally they decided to call upon God together to reveal who was right and who was wrong. God answered " You are both wrong ". Each of you sought to justify yourselves and your own righteousness, without consulting me in the matter.

 The men begged forgiveness, and God granted it saying " You have both learned a valuable lesson that can help you complete your journey down the path, just as I intended ". 

 Morale of the story - Maybe all the religion and doctrine arguments are meant to be( and continue to grow ).  As the number of religions and doctrines grow it becomes increasingly more frustrating for those that seek Truth and God's path for them. Hopefully they will come to realize they can have a close and personal relationship with God, just as Jesus promised, no need for man " who is frail as breath ".

[Guest Butero]

53 minutes ago, ayin jade said:

I know hawk didnt mean this just to stir up strife. It was a discussion we had in chat over something that concerns her and her church in attempts to reach out to other churches in the area to help the less fortunate in the community. 

Second, wearing pants versus skirts may not be a big deal to any church, but supporting a church that is legalistic might be a big deal. So to go out of ones way to wear a skirt or dress only, or to immerse in order to appease the legalists might be non negotiable.

It well may be A.J., but that only shows this is not an unimportant issue.  It is important to both sides, and cannot be trivialized as it was in the OP.  I didn't know that was being discussed in chat, but my advise still stands if she really finds these as non-essential issues.  If they are not that important in the scheme of things, why not just go along for the greater good? 

[Qnts2]

Just a quick historical comment about Baptism by immersion.

I agree that Baptism is to be by immersion, but do see some exceptions to this practice as valid.

In the history of the church, the earliest of believers were baptised by immersion (which by the way is the practice of Judaism with the mikvah). However, in early Christian history, Christianity was against the Roman law. There was a time spies knew where Christians tended to baptize new converts and would go to find out who was being baptized and who was doing the baptism to turn them in to the government. Those caught were put to death. So, to be baptized by immersion in an outdoor lake or river became a death sentence for new believers. The decision was made to move the baptism indoors so spies would not see who was a new believer, so they would not be killed. The indoor baptisms forced some to baptize by pouring water over them or sprinkled. The change was to save the lives of the new believers. I'm not sure how long this practice was done to save lives but I imagine it was for a couple of hundred years.

In modern Christianity, the most effective ministries which have assistance from a variety of churches are those ministries considered 'parachurch'. They are not sponsored by one particular church trying to get other churches to join in. Parachurch ministries usually have statements of faith which cover the fundamentals but do not take a stance on things which do not directly affect their ministry. A parachurch ministry which feeds the poor, probably would not conduct baptisms, so there is no reason for them to stand for or against a particular form of baptism. 

Parachurch ministers when speaking to a particular church would dress appropriately for that church. The organization would not have a statement of faith which included a dress requirement but would recognize that to dress appropriately when speaking or visiting a church which did, is simply a part of not being an offense and fellowshipping to further the needs of helping the poor and widows as believers. 

In my area, there are ministries not connected to a particular church which are dedicated to feeding the poor, or providing clothes, or providing a bed in a warm building that most of the churches can support with providing food, clothes or donations. People from the various churches volunteer, without any issue with varying doctrines which do not involve the fundamental of the doctrines of salvation.

[seraph]

Hawk, my church has other churches meeting on our property, community outreaches, as well as non-Christian groups using our property. I talked with my pastor to ask him about your questions.

The churches that meet share the same core doctrines that line up with our SBC church; the Spanish, Chinese, Thai, Persian, and Deaf churches can reach people for Christ that we cannot. One of the churches does believe women should wear skirts but this doesn't create any conflict. All the church groups believe in baptism by immersion; the pastor would not approve of a group baptize by sprinkling as it is not representing the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (though the church could 'overturn' him).

We have many community-focused events that may work with community partners that may not be Christian, but would not support things that go against our beliefs, such as abortion. We have practical outreaches that welcome everyone like parenting classes, community service opportunities, etc. The hope is that they will come to know Christ, of first importance, but also to meet the needs of the community. We have seen many come to Christ through these activities (some are members and being discipled, others are elsewhere).

Non-Christians groups may "rent" our facilities In the community, such as the local high school for their talent show or we may partner with a governmental agency for a community service like supervised visitation monitoring. We have the reputation of being the church for the community.... loving not just in words, but in deed and truth... that's a beautiful thing for "the world" to see that in us. Of course, our "ulterior motive" is for them to come to know Christ, and it does bring us the open door to speak to them about the Lord... and we do... and we have seen the fruit from it.

Hope this helps with your question.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Hawkeye,

Why not just be a charity & do the good works that way? Then anyone can join in to help the community.

Marilyn.

[ayin jade]

9 minutes ago, seraph said:

 

Non-Christians groups may "rent" our facilities In the community, such as the local high school for their talent show or we may partner with a governmental agency for a community service like supervised visitation monitoring. We have the reputation of being the church for the community.... loving not just in words, but in deed and truth... that's a beautiful thing for "the world" to see that in us. Of course, our "ulterior motive" is for them to come to know Christ, and it does bring us the open door to speak to them about the Lord... and we do... and we have seen the fruit from it.

 

Not to derail this thread but .... Man, I can see a gay group targeting your church to demand the right to host a pro gay meeting in your church. Demanding that since you open your doors to non Christian groups, that they are being discriminated against and should be able to rent space from you. 

[seraph]

1 minute ago, ayin jade said:

Not to derail this thread but .... Man, I can see a gay group targeting your church to demand the right to host a pro gay meeting in your church. Demanding that since you open your doors to non Christian groups, that they are being discriminated against and should be able to rent space from you. 

I'll ask the pastor about that. It's not "open to the public" to "rent," we allow groups to meet and charge a very minimal usage fee to cover the cost, not to make a profit.

Edited to add: I'll ask another day, I was already on the phone with him for 20 minutes

Edited February 15, 2016 by seraph
Edited to add

[hmbld]

Every church I've been to tries to find ways to be active in their community, usually with limited turnout with mostly a core group who volunteer. I've heard lots of promoting for other churches to join in. Well, the other churches already have a schedule of activities, so the number who show up is very low. Oddly, I have not heard encouragement to go help other churches, everyone wants others to come. Maybe find out what other churches have a need for, and volunteer to jump in!