Who is The 7th Kingdom Beast (and 8th) of Rev?

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, douggg said:

They are not muslim anymore if they become Christians.

There are seven years following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39 in the text.    Those seven years are the 70th week of Daniel 9.

There are no 7 years following Satan's last rebellion in Revelation 20, but the Great White Throne judgment.

They will not be muslim anymore, if they receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.   

You did not quote the verse correctly - neither parts 8a nor 8b.     The verse doesn't says "was not and yet is" - anywhere.        It says was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 17:8a in blue is historic, prior to John's time.     8b skips to the end times and refers to the end time person.

  8a    The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

 8b     and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

 

The whole point was the timing of Rev 17:10-11, not a paraphrase for effect. Not getting into the Gog/Magog war, different topic.  And again, the point of the Muslim position was to counter your belief that a particular people group is destined to genocide based on religion. There is a great deal about the Muslims and the Koran many do not know. But again that's not a topic for here.

The 7th and 8th beast and the empire is not an RRE, the UN, the EU nor associated with these groups. Islam is a much better fit based on Daniel 8 and 11. Both show the succession of empires and kings right to the beast that was, and is not, and yet is, as the narrative centers on the Middle East, not Europe. 

[douggg]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 10/16/2016 at 11:49 AM, douggg said:

 

The whole point was the timing of Rev 17:10-11, not a paraphrase for effect. Not getting into the Gog/Magog war, different topic.  And again, the point of the Muslim position was to counter your belief that a particular people group is destined to genocide based on religion. There is a great deal about the Muslims and the Koran many do not know. But again that's not a topic for here.

No, I did not say a particular people group is destined to genocide based on religion.     The religion of Islam will cease to be a worldwide religion like it is now, following Gog/Magog, because that event will be such a crushing blow to the theology of Islam, and people who are muslims will just no longer believe it following Gog/Magog.

The point I was making is that your statement that not all mulims will worship the beast - is counter to what the bible says in Revelation 13 that everyone in the world will worship the beast - except them who's name is not written in the Lamb's book of life.      No person who's religion is muslim is saved.    The muslims deny that Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus died on the cross.

 

[Salty]

On 10/14/2016 at 8:16 AM, Diaste said:

Not the point. I'm saying Rev 17:11 tells us the beast must be the 8th and of the 7. Meaning that whatever or whoever the beast is, he must be like the first 7, or descend from the 7, etc. There is no way to discern who this might be based solely on Rev 17:11. However, if there is a person who fits such a description it has to be considered seriously.

The 'one is' from Rev 17:10 has always been misinterpreted. How is it that a sentence fragments meaning can be spread across 6000+ years? I say it cannot. Neither can this sentence fragment from Rev 17:10 be related to the Dan 2 statue as there is no parallel. 

A critical look at Rev 17:10 shows real trouble with the popular interpretation.

10 And there are seven kings: This seems to say the 7 kings exist at the time of the writing. Notice the verb 'are'. This would not be the past as many contend but seems to be present. Otherwise why would the verb tense not be past as in, 'were'? Not only is this based on the verb tense but also the idea that Jesus said, Rev 4:1, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." So none of these prophecies concern any past event from the time of John, whether in 70 AD or 90 AD. It's also a huge mistake in comprehension to place all 7 kings in existence when the narrative is going forward to indicate that 5 are past. In other words, How can Jesus say all 7 exist when he knows full well that 5 are already past? Further, in the same sentence, Jesus is going to say the 7th has not 'yet come' when he clearly states all 7 kings 'are'. A future understanding reconciles all this. 

five are fallen, Again a present tense and not past. This doesn't make much sense.  If 5 have fallen it must be past, correct? Not really. The word here again is 'are', not 'were' or 'have' which are both past tense. If these 7 kings were yet future then the present tense verb fits. Jesus is saying that 7 kings will exist at some point future from the writing, therefore they 'are' . Jesus is telling us this group will exist at some point and 5 will be 'fallen'. None of this is past as the present verbs indicate. 

and one is, Here's the real sticking point. "One is" must be present as we understand 'is'. True, but 'are' and 'is' are both present tense. So the literal meaning indicates the 7 who 'are', the five who 'are fallen', and the one who 'is' all exist at the same moment based on the usage of the present tense verbs. This shows only a future fulfillment is possible as it cannot be that these kings as a group, or an individual, both exist and do not exist at the same time.

and the other is not yet come; There is always confusion here as well. If 7 kings 'are' how can one 'not yet come'? Based on the above Jesus is speaking about a prophecy of 7 kings in the future. Not only did Jesus say 'hereafter' in Rev 4:1, showing that the 7 kings are yet future, the 7 kings already 'are'. The only understanding here must that of a future moment where a group of 7 kings exist where 5 have run their course and the 'one is' indicates the coming of the short lived 7th, leading to the 8th king, the beast.

What I find incomprehensible is the lack of insight of some when parsing this fragment. If Jesus established the context in Rev 4:1 as the future, and the context has not changed then Rev 17:10 must be future as well. It's a prophecy and it wouldn't be a prophecy if it was past or present. There are dozens of prophecies that reference a past event indicative of similar elements of a future event. Notably, "as it was in the days of Noah, so also shall the coming of the Son of man be." It's made quite clear what Jesus is saying here. It's also clear in Rev 17:10 when the context is 'hereafter' from Rev 4:1, a context that is not changed, nor is another context suggested.

I don't know the exact answer to the 7 kings. I cannot fully identify them. I have no clue to the identity of the 'one is'. That understanding could come later. What I do know is this:

Rev 17:11 "...even he is the eighth, and is of the seven..." And that the leader of an utterly bestial organization, one that existed in another form; that held vast territory and slaughtered over 250 million people during a 700 year bloodbath, in the name of a false god to force religious conversion, has been described as " the 8th, descended from a previous 7".  That seems to equate perfectly.

The reason the 8th final beast king is 'of' the previous 7 is because it's about Satan, as Satan has been over all the previous 6 beast kings of history, and will be the 7th, and then after the 1,000 years of Rev.20 he will in final be the 8th beast king when he is loosed from the pit to go tempt the nations one final time.

 

[douggg]

29 minutes ago, Salty said:

The reason the 8th final beast king is 'of' the previous 7 is because it's about Satan, as Satan has been over all the previous 6 beast kings of history, and will be the 7th, and then after the 1,000 years of Rev.20 he will in final be the 8th beast king when he is loosed from the pit to go tempt the nations one final time.

Salty, this verse I think disproves your theory.      The dragon represents Satan, I think you will agree.    The beast cannot be the dragon because the beast is listed separately.

Revelation 16;13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

 

[Salty]

12 minutes ago, douggg said:

Salty, this verse I think disproves your theory.      The dragon represents Satan, I think you will agree.    The beast cannot be the dragon because the beast is listed separately.

Revelation 16;13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

 

No flesh born man will be judged and sentenced to perish until after the future 1,000 reign of Christ. So who could these be that go into the "lake of fire" and perish immediately prior to the 1,000 years?

Rev 19:20
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
KJV

And if you look at Rev.13, it's the "another beast" (beast king) who works the miracles, great wonders, and signs which many have confused as the "false prophet", when no one such as a false prophet is mentioned in Rev.13. Men's traditions, if you hear them enough, can sway you from what is actually written in Scripture.

Rev.13 reveals a kingdom beast (1st beast), and then a beast entity (2nd beast, the "another beast"). That 2nd beast is come with two horns LIKE a lamb, but will speak as a dragon. That 2nd beast of Rev.13 is... the dragon, i.e., Satan himself.

Likewise, so also is Satan the false prophet of Rev.16 and 19, the difference being the beast concept (both kingdom and kingship) along with the false prophet role all go into the lake of fire on the day of Jesus' return. That is how we know the beast and false prophet of Rev.16:13 and 19:20 are not flesh men, but 'roles' Satan will play on the world stage when he gets here. He is coming ultimately to play our Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus also was known as a Prophet and He is our King. Thus those beast king and false prophet roles are played by Satan also for the end.

 

 

 

[Guest Robert]

24 minutes ago, Salty said:

No flesh born man will be judged and sentenced to perish until after the future 1,000 reign of Christ. So who could these be that go into the "lake of fire" and perish immediately prior to the 1,000 years?

Rev 19:20
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
KJV

And if you look at Rev.13, it's the "another beast" (beast king) who works the miracles, great wonders, and signs which many have confused as the "false prophet", when no one such as a false prophet is mentioned in Rev.13. Men's traditions, if you hear them enough, can sway you from what is actually written in Scripture.

Rev.13 reveals a kingdom beast (1st beast), and then a beast entity (2nd beast, the "another beast"). That 2nd beast is come with two horns LIKE a lamb, but will speak as a dragon. That 2nd beast of Rev.13 is... the dragon, i.e., Satan himself.

Likewise, so also is Satan the false prophet of Rev.16 and 19, the difference being the beast concept (both kingdom and kingship) along with the false prophet role all go into the lake of fire on the day of Jesus' return. That is how we know the beast and false prophet of Rev.16:13 and 19:20 are not flesh men, but 'roles' Satan will play on the world stage when he gets here. He is coming ultimately to play our Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus also was known as a Prophet and He is our King. Thus those beast king and false prophet roles are played by Satan also for the end.

 

 

 

Then I guess Revelation was wrong when Jesus cast the Beast and the False Prophet alive into the Lake of Fire in Revelation 19:

"And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone". (Revelation 19:20, NASB, emphasis mine)

Both are human beings who were natural born, and Jesus' judgment on them was to throw them directly into the Lake of Fire.

Edited October 19, 2016 by RobertS

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Salty said:

Rev.13 reveals a kingdom beast (1st beast), and then a beast entity (2nd beast, the "another beast"). That 2nd beast is come with two horns LIKE a lamb, but will speak as a dragon. That 2nd beast of Rev.13 is... the dragon, i.e., Satan himself.

 

The second beast, the one coming out of the earth, is not Satan either.    Satan is not from the earth.   And the second beast, the false prophet, gets cast into the lake of fire upon Jesus return - while differently Satan get bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

And the second beast is never worshiped in the text.     It is the first beast that will be worshiped and Satan for giving him his power.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Salty]

6 hours ago, RobertS said:

Then I guess Revelation was wrong when Jesus cast the Beast and the False Prophet alive into the Lake of Fire in Revelation 19:

"And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone". (Revelation 19:20, NASB, emphasis mine)

Both are human beings who were natural born, and Jesus' judgment on them was to throw them directly into the Lake of Fire.

The only time of judgement to condemnation of perishing into the "lake of fire" for flesh born man is after the future 1,000 years of Rev.20.

You will not find it written anywhere in God's Word where it says someone born of woman is assigned to the lake of fire already. This is why even our Lord Jesus was careful not to judge unto condemnation into the lake of fire, for that time for His Judgment is not come yet for any flesh born man. To say He did judge even one flesh born man to the lake of fire already is to make Him a liar.

Thusly, the beast and false prophet cannot be flesh born men, since they are cast into the lake of fire prior to the day of Judgement after the 1,000 years reign by Christ.

[Salty]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

 

The second beast, the one coming out of the earth, is not Satan either.    Satan is not from the earth.   And the second beast, the false prophet, gets cast into the lake of fire upon Jesus return - while differently Satan get bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

And the second beast is never worshiped in the text.     It is the first beast that will be worshiped and Satan for giving him his power.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

I suppose you've missed quite a lot in Revelation then, because Satan is that king who ascends up out of the bottomless pit of Rev.9:11.

Satan also is that beast of Rev.11:7 that ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses in Jerusalem.

Satan is also the beast of Rev.17:8 that shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and will eventually go into perdition (i.e., into the lake of fire, since only he and his angels have so far been judged and sentenced to perish).

And who is it that gets locked in chains in the bottomless pit when Jesus returns? Ah... it's Satan once again:

Rev 20:1-3
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
KJV

 

[douggg]

18 minutes ago, Salty said:

I suppose you've missed quite a lot in Revelation then, because Satan is that king who ascends up out of the bottomless pit of Rev.9:11.

What?

Quote

Satan also is that beast of Rev.11:7 that ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses in Jerusalem.

 

What?

Quote

Satan is also the beast of Rev.17:8 that shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and will eventually go into perdition (i.e., into the lake of fire, since only he and his angels have so far been judged and sentenced to perish).

 

What?
 

Quote

 

And who is it that gets locked in chains in the bottomless pit when Jesus returns? Ah... it's Satan once again:

Rev 20:1-3
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

But you wrote that the false prophet is Satan.    And the false prophet gets cast into the lake fire when Jesus returns.    While Satan goes to another place, the bottomless pit.    So the false prophet cannot be Satan.