If life is in the blood, does God allow blood transfusions ?

[Retrobyter]

31 minutes ago, Ezra said:

If Heaven is a "mythical place", why do you bother with the Bible, or resurrection, or anything else pertaining to the Gospel?

Because, my dear brother Ezra, the Resurrection is a REAL EVENT and the New Jerusalem is a REAL PLACE being prepared by Yeshua` and the New Earth will be a REAL PLACE once this present earth receives its "make-over!" THOSE things are IN the Bible, and THOSE are the things on which we can count!

Furthermore, the Gospel is NOT the "death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ!" Those facts were in ADDITION to the Gospel that Yeshua` heralded. The Gospel of the KINGDOM is found in Isaiah 52:7:

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, THY GOD REIGNETH!
KJV

This is the verse that was quoted in Romans 10:14-15:

Romans 10:14-15
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher (a herald)?
15 And how shall they preach (herald), except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV

[Retrobyter]

On March 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM, WilliamL said:

Retrobyter teaches "soul-sleep": that souls die until the Resurrection -- that souls stop being souls ("air-breathers"). The Bible teaches differently. The Bible teaches that souls can go to heaven or hell, and remain sentient when they are there. Hades/Hell is an entirely different place than the grave, as I would hope everyone realizes.

Acts 2:25 "For David says concerning Him [Jesus]: ... 27 You will not leave my soul in Hades [descent], Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. [Ps. 16:8ff.] ... 31 “This Jesus God has raised up [ascent], of which we are all witnesses. 32 ...being exalted to the right hand of God..."

Eph. 4:9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Rev. 20:13 Death [i.e. the grave: the place of dead bodies] and Hades [the place of the non-saved souls] delivered up the dead who were in them.

So Retrobyter's unambiguous testimony that " Souls" don't ascend or descend..." is clearly false.

The death of souls is to be cut off from God in Sheol/Hell, not cease to exist. The death of bodies is to return to dust.

Shalom, WilliamL.

I'm going back to this post because of another important point to which you alluded. You said, "Retrobyter teaches 'soul-sleep': that souls die until the Resurrection -- that souls stop being souls ('air-breathers'). The Bible teaches differently." But, DOES it?

2 Corinthians 5:1-10
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life (Resurrection).
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
KJV

We simply close our eyes in death, and when we re-open them, we're in the Resurrection! For we who are dead, no time has passed at all! Only someone who survived us in life would know that we spent time in the ground (or in the sea, or as ashes, etc.)

[WilliamL]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 ...

We simply close our eyes in death, and when we re-open them, we're in the Resurrection!

Nothing in the above passages say what you say. Nothing.

Paul says quite clearly, "...whilst we are at home in the body [of flesh], we are absent from the Lord: ...to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." You say exactly the opposite: one must have a resurrected body to be present with the Lord.

On 3/15/2016 at 8:14 AM, WilliamL said:

Jesus ... told of the rich man after his death: "...being in torments in hell/Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."  Luke 16:23 Lazarus, Abraham, and the rich man are all described by Jesus as being sentient, able to converse with one another. All of their bodies are dead, yet their souls retain both existence and sentience.

On 3/16/2016 at 9:58 PM, Retrobyter said:

Y'know (or you SHOULD know), it's kinda hard to have "tongues," "fingers," have eyes for "seeing," or vocal folds for "speaking," or skin for "being tormented," etc. without a BODY! Yeshua` was speaking about the time of the General Resurrection, when all who are resurrected are brought before the Great White Throne for judgment!

William said, 3/66/2016: 2. No, this could not possibly have been the time of the Great White Throne, because the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus back to his brothers to warn them -- something past the realm of possibility at the time of the GWT, as you should well know. Jesus put the whole story in the past tense, because it had already occurred while men still lived on earth.

On 3/17/2016 at 9:21 PM, Retrobyter said:

But, you DON'T KNOW THAT! Indeed, isn't it possible that He DID know that they were in the past and believed that an Almighty God could send one back, like He sent images of the future back to the prophets?

 

So you deny the clear words of the Word himself, Jesus, who said that in Hades men can see and speak and taste water and suffer tormenting heat. Whereas you say Hades means the death of both body and soul, which soul cannot do any of these things.

Likewise, you deny "the Revelation of Jesus Christ," which says at the Great White Throne Judgment, Death and Hades will "give up their dead" to be judged before that throne. Rev. 20:13 So therefore, there is to be no more warning of anyone, nor will there be any more souls descend to Hades, something the rich man was trying to prevent for his brothers.

You are 'twisting the Scriptures to your own destruction,' as Peter puts it in 2 Peter 3:16, by your clear denial of the Lord's words both of himself and through his Apostles. That is your choice, but I pray that anyone else reading this debate won't follow in your path.

 

[simplejeff]

just pay attention to GOD'S WORD ,  

not man's interpretations.  man is wrong.

levendwater dot org books the rich man and lazarus index dot htm

 

 

[Ezra]

6 hours ago, simplejeff said:

just pay attention to GOD'S WORD , not man's interpretations.  

Simple Jeff,

Scripture must be interpreted by men, and not all interpretation.  So what you have to say for yourself?  Do you believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep?

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Nothing in the above passages say what you say. Nothing.

Paul says quite clearly, "...whilst we are at home in the body [of flesh], we are absent from the Lord: ...to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." You say exactly the opposite: one must have a resurrected body to be present with the Lord.

So you deny the clear words of the Word himself, Jesus, who said that in Hades men can see and speak and taste water and suffer tormenting heat. Whereas you say Hades means the death of both body and soul, which soul cannot do any of these things.

Likewise, you deny "the Revelation of Jesus Christ," which says at the Great White Throne Judgment, Death and Hades will "give up their dead" to be judged before that throne. Rev. 20:13 So therefore, there is to be no more warning of anyone, nor will there be any more souls descend to Hades, something the rich man was trying to prevent for his brothers.

You are 'twisting the Scriptures to your own destruction,' as Peter puts it in 2 Peter 3:16, by your clear denial of the Lord's words both of himself and through his Apostles. That is your choice, but I pray that anyone else reading this debate won't follow in your path.

 

Shalom and soon Shabbat shalom, WilliamL.

LOL! SAYS YOU, bro'! You pick-and-choose what you want to read from the passage! Why do you think I quote so much of the text? It's so you can see the context of a particular verse or phrase! When I was growing up in a Baptist church, it was quite common to camp on one verse of Scripture here or there. When one is asked to quote some Scripture, it's not uncommon to hear verses pulled from various places in the New Testament, but almost always no more than one verse from a particular passage.

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life (Resurrection).

Did you completely forget this verse? THAT is what Paul was talking about!

Secondly, have you even looked at the Greek of Revelation 20:13-14? It's clear from the text that "death and hadees" TOGETHER give up the dead which were in them, and they are contrasted with the "sea":

Apokalupsis 20:13-14

13 Kai edooken hee thalassa ................. tous nekrous tous en autee
kai ho thanatos kai ho hadees edookan tous nekrous tous en autois,
kai ekritheesan hekastos kata ta erga autoon.

14 Kai ho thanatos kai ho hades ebleetheesan eis teen limneen tou puros.
Houtos ho thanatos ho deuteron estin, hee limnee tou puros.

UBS Greek New Testament

 

Thus, the dead at sea are being contrasted with the dead on the land, i.e., in their graves! So, does that mean that one who dies and is buried at sea doesn't go to "hadees?"

 

Also, you need to get a grip. Since when did it say that the rich man "descended" into hadees?

 

Something else you should consider: Was he trying to keep his brothers out of hadees? OR was he trying to keep himself from their presence? Was he doing it out of "compassion," OR was he looking out for his own "skin?" (Which "skin," according to you, he didn't have at that time.)

 

And, talk about "twisting the Scriptures!" That's NOT AT ALL what Kefa (Peter) meant in 2 Peter 3:16!

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

Simple Jeff,

Scripture must be interpreted by men, and not all interpretation.  So what you have to say for yourself?  Do you believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep?

Shalom, Ezra.

Hey, Ezra, that's kind of a loaded question, isn't it? Hasn't the "judge" already made the decision before the question was asked? How's somebody supposed to answer such a question, "Do you believe in the false doctrine of ... (ANYTHING) ?" SO, Mr. Judge, Jury and Executioner, how do YOU plead?

[Sister]

Quote

We simply close our eyes in death, and when we re-open them, we're in the Resurrection! For we who are dead, no time has passed at all! Only someone who survived us in life would know that we spent time in the ground (or in the sea, or as ashes, etc.)

Retrobyter

A big Amen to what you said here.

If it's that simple, and we are truly in Christ, we should not be afraid of death, because being separated from this world is only as long as a blink of an eye.  Same for all those not in Christ, they wake up and face Christ at the 2nd judgement, in the blink of an eye also.

[Ezra]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

SO, Mr. Judge, Jury and Executioner, how do YOU plead?

Actually Scripture condemns soul sleep as false doctrine. So I plead guilty to condemning it also. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He neither sleeps nor do the saints surrounding Him in Heaven (which you believe is mythical). Christ said that God is a God of THE LIVING, not the dead.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Ezra said:

Actually Scripture condemns soul sleep as false doctrine. So I plead guilty to condemning it also. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He neither sleeps nor do the saints surrounding Him in Heaven (which you believe is mythical). Christ said that God is a God of THE LIVING, not the dead.

Shabbat shalom, Ezra.

Hmmm.... It seems that you missed my point. What I meant was that you SKIPPED a step or two.

Look, it's okay to believe that "soul sleep is a false doctrine." Frankly, I'm a little "iffy" on my position because not all of the "holes" are "plugged," thanks in large part to my upbringing and the constant teaching I received as a child. I even said in a "back-doored" way to SINNERSAVED on Wednesday, "... BUT, if we don't and some 'non-physical' part of us goes to 'Heaven,' it goes to the New Jerusalem. And, being without body (which is to say without ourselves [???]), then we are 'disembodied spirits' and could not enjoy the New Jerusalem, anyway! We would be longing for our bodies! 'How long, O Lord?'"

HOWEVER, don't get me wrong; I still believe that what you call "soul sleep" fits better with what I've learned about what a "soul" and a "spirit" are, and that goes back to Genesis 2:7.

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

B'reeshiyt 2:7
7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'aadaam `aafaar min haa'adaamaah vayipach b'apaayv nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayaah:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

7 Vayiytser = 7 And-made
YHWH = the-LORD
Elohiym = God
et = (the following word is the direct object)
haa'aadaam = the-man
`aafaar = of-dust
min = from
haa'adaamaah = the-ground
vayipach = and-breathed
b'apaayv = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayiym = of-life
vayhiy = and-became
haa'aadaam = the-man
l-nefesh = to/into-a-soul/air-breather
chayaah:= living:

Just visualize the process! Other than the personal nature of the action, the action itself is quite physical! Thus, the nature of the "soul" is quite physical! The man formed (who IS a body) became an air-breather! Period!

Later, when God wiped out ALL the air-breathers, both human and animal, we are told,

Genesis 7:21-22
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
KJV

B'reeshiyt 7:21-22
21 Vayigva` kaal baasaar haaromees `al haa'aarets baa'owf uwVabheemaah uwVachayaah uwVkhaal hasherets hashoreets `al haa'aarets vkhol haa'aadaam:
22 Kol asher nishmat ruwach chayiym b'apaayv mikhol asher bchaaraaVaah meetuw:

21 Vayigva` = 21 And-died
kaal = all
baasaar = flesh
haaromees = that-darted-about
`al = upon
haa'aarets = the-earth
baa'owf = in-birds
uwVabheemaah = and-in-cattle
uwVachayaah = and-in-beasts
uwVkhaal = and-in-all
hasherets = creeping-things
hashoreets = creeping
`al = upon
haa'aarets = the-earth
vkhol = and-all
haa'aadaam: = men:
22 Kol = 22 All
asher = that/who/whose
nishmat = a-puff
ruwach = of-spirit/breath/wind
chayiym = living
b'apaayv = in-its-nostrils
mikhol = from-all
asher = that
bchaaraaVaah = in-[the]-dry-[land]
meetuw: = died:

Thus, the judgment of the Flood was against all air-breathers on land. Nothing is said about sea creatures or fish. Furthermore, we learn that the "puff" is a puff of "wind" or "breath," the "spirit."

Therefore, a "living soul" - the "living air-breather" - is a combination of the "body" (the person formed!) and the "spirit" - the "breath" - puffed into his nostrils. 

My conclusion is, therefore, that when a "living air-breather" dies, his "spirit" or "breath" leaves him; that is, he "breathes his last," and he ceases to be an "air-breather!" He ceases to be a "soul." Furthermore, his "breath" that left him was just the exhalation from his lungs, consisting of gases! It did not contain some non-physical entity that went off somewhere else! The person we were while breathing is only stored in the great Mind of God, who will REMEMBER US and bring us back to life in the Resurrection!

That being said, let's get back to the point I was trying to make:

In the field of discussion and debate, one must BUILD an argument from the ACCEPTED points that the two parties have in common, only introducing a contentious point one at a time (unless you're going for "the SHOCK factor," that is, the psychological impact of a bold statement). To make TWO (or more) contentious points at once merely "muddies the water" and makes it harder for the other person to see your points. By the introduction of the one word "false," you've damaged your question! It makes an honest question into a DISHONEST ATTACK! That's all I was saying.