Rethinking the Rapture

[Omegaman 3.0]

37 minutes ago, Defending the Name said:

The context of culture is important in interpreting biblical text. Think Jewish culture.  

Perhaps so, but I do not intimately know Jewish culture. It is not as though, Jewish culture, has always lead to correct interpretations. It is not as though anyone living, really understands Jewish culture, perhaps especially so, from the time of the writing of Genesis.

I am afraid that I have to contend with my ignorance, and work with what I have. I believe that the word of God is inspired, and if I have to go outside of that, to read too many commentaries, to much history, theology text books or other flawed works of mankind (like your opinion and my opinion), then I am treading on thin ice.

Don't get me wrong, these things are all valuable, but they cannot dictate to us, anything about the Bible, that is not from the Bible. I suspect that if God had chosen not to include those who had no great understanding of Jewish culture, He might not have raised up men to write the New Testament to let the gentiles know what people like myself, needed to know as well as to instruct those who were steeped in Jewish culture and understanding, realize what they were missing, in terms of what they had misunderstood until the revelation of the Messiah.

In my opinion, it is difficult to extract a lot of information, from a couple of sentences, about one man, without reading into it, things that may not have been intended.

[Ezra]

19 hours ago, Defending the Name said:

Enoch passed away like any human being, that is he died and this is the way the author put it as God taking him away. 

If Enoch died or passed away like any other man, his passing away would not have been of any consequence.  The Bible does not say that he died but HE DID NOT SEE DEATH, and that he was *translated* (move from one location to another).  He was supernaturally taken up to Heaven while he was alive (Heb 11:5):

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

[Defending the Name]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

If Enoch died or passed away like any other man, his passing away would not have been of any consequence.  The Bible does not say that he died but HE DID NOT SEE DEATH, and that he was *translated* (move from one location to another).  He was supernaturally taken up to Heaven while he was alive (Heb 11:5):

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

I understand what you are trying to say. The author of the old testament gives a list of all the departed tribal/clan members in a list that was customary spoken out at a funeral service. The context is that the same outcome has come upon all those who are being called out in the list.

The word translate in modern language is transfer. In Enoch's case and within the context of the departed funeral list, Enoch was transfered in state from what he was to being no more amongst the living. To be transferred without seeing or experiencing the pains of death as a causation does not infer being physically transported in the present earthly state. We refer to Elijah and Philip who were physically transported from one place to another and both Elijah crops up when he delivers a letter to a new King who was after he was transported and Philip was seen in a different place after baptising the African Eunuch.

There is no evidence when considering both the old and new testament writings to infer that Enoch was physically transported in his earthly body somewhere else.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Defending the Name

[Defending the Name]

18 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Perhaps so, but I do not intimately know Jewish culture. It is not as though, Jewish culture, has always lead to correct interpretations. It is not as though anyone living, really understands Jewish culture, perhaps especially so, from the time of the writing of Genesis.

I am afraid that I have to contend with my ignorance, and work with what I have. I believe that the word of God is inspired, and if I have to go outside of that, to read too many commentaries, to much history, theology text books or other flawed works of mankind (like your opinion and my opinion), then I am treading on thin ice.

Don't get me wrong, these things are all valuable, but they cannot dictate to us, anything about the Bible, that is not from the Bible. I suspect that if God had chosen not to include those who had no great understanding of Jewish culture, He might not have raised up men to write the New Testament to let the gentiles know what people like myself, needed to know as well as to instruct those who were steeped in Jewish culture and understanding, realize what they were missing, in terms of what they had misunderstood until the revelation of the Messiah.

In my opinion, it is difficult to extract a lot of information, from a couple of sentences, about one man, without reading into it, things that may not have been intended.

 

You have raised some very valid points. In another post you made a pinion point that there appears to be a list stating the usual way of passing, which is death, with the exception of Enoch.

Another point you made is to highlight a context and purpose of this list, where purpose needs to be tied to context of Jewish culture. In Jewish culture it was customery to announce at the request of family or clan members the names of their departed originating clan/tribal leaders, of which each and every name mentioned is highly suggestive of this. Enoch along all the other names were clan/tribal leaders whereby their offsprings who carried their name requested mention of their name in a funeral service. So the purpose of the list is within the context of a funeral service to mention the departed clan/tribal leaders. In Genesis 5 there would not have been many generations and so every living clan member wanted to be reminded from which tribe/clan they came from in honour of that individual.

Since the context is a Jewish funeral list, then also Enoch amongst the list is also counted as to have died, being no more as the old testament writer puts it.

 

You are correct in saying that "it is difficult to extract a lot of information, from a couple of sentences, about one man, without reading into it, things that may not have been intended."

 

In this regard we must read into it to decipher the context and purpose of the list according to the cultural Jewish context.  What is the purpose of this list, is it from a historical context or a customery funeral context at the request of the living clan members. 

 

[Ezra]

18 hours ago, Defending the Name said:

There is no evidence when considering both the old and new testament writings to infer that Enoch was physically transported in his earthly body somewhere else.

Actually the evidence is quite clear.  Since you have rejected it, and also contradicted Scripture,  there is nothing more to discuss.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

The question and how its worded

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not **see death**? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? 

Jesus answer and how its worded...

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep **my saying**, he shall never **see death**.

Shown in Enoch and how its worded ...

Heb 11:10 **By faith** Enoch was translated that he should not **see death** 
 

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

Or here even the wording

Heb 11:10 **By faith** Enoch was translated that he should not **see death** and was **not found**, 

Enoch was not found, which wording just reminds me of Phi 3:9 hightlighing in the two "by faith" in the same

Phil 3:9 And**be found** in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through **the faith** of Christ, the righteousness is of God **by faith**

Edited August 15, 2016 by AFlameOfFire

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

Without faith its impossible to please God

By faith Enoch pleased God (the testimony before his translation) since without faith its impossible to please him.

Heb 11:10 **By faith** Enoch was translated that he should not **see death** and was** not found**, because God had translated him: for **before** "his translation" he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 

[HAZARD]

It is for every man for to die once. God took Enoch to Heaven as He did Elijah, where they still are now, alive and well, they will be the two witnesses, and Enoch will return as one of the two witnesses with Elijah, and while here, as one of the two witnesses he will be killed, lay in the street dead, and after three and one half days God will raise him from the dead.

(Gen. 5:21-24; Hebrews 11:5).

Rev. 11:3, The two witnesses will be given power by Christ in the future;

Rev. 11: 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

While they will prophecy of future events, nevertheless their main purpose will be to preach and turn peoples hearts back to God and to teach others, in order to avert the judgment of God (Mal. 4:5, 6).

The beast will ascend out of the abyss and will make war on them and will overcome them and kill them (Rev. 11:7). The phrase "kill them" shows clearly that they will be two natural men who have never died, but who will die at the hands of the beast. This proves that they have been translated in order to "stand before the God of the earth" and they are still in their natural bodies and will be sent back to the earth as mortals otherwise they could never be killed by the Antichrist.

[Last Daze]

13 hours ago, HAZARD said:

It is for every man for to die once.

How many times did Lazarus die?