What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

[enoob57]

There  are some principles being violated in thought process here... creation was never to encompass God as having no begin and end!
Creation pointing to God in Spirit yes! God had to begin us somewhere in His distinct Person and understandings... it pleased God to do
so as it is written... when ever we take the created essence and try to bind God within it- we become the fellow workers with satan~ who
only has control of here by our giving it to him... God has clearly divided the understanding into two pathways: the first is earthy born out
of a fallen world corrupt and destined for eternal separation from God.... The second is one of s/Spirit that contains the ideas and concepts
formed out of God's Word Plus intensions of God! So that we see here as shadows of what once could have been but clearly we look to the
light to see what will be. Causing here, the material aspects, to fade from importance except God's Will be done... Love, Steven

[TrevorL]

Many Trinitarians claim that when Jesus uses the phrase “I Am” in John 8:58 that he is claiming to be God, and they connect this with Exodus 3:14 where the KJV and many other translations suggest the Name of God is revealed as “I AM”. The following is taking up some of the places in John’s Gospel where the phrase “I am” occurs and testing the Trinitarian claim. I am not sure if I have found every relevant occurrence. We need to determine if Jesus and John are connecting all or some of these with Exodus 3:14. Principally we need to determine if the “I am” of John 8:58 is directly connected with Exodus 3:14 or has some other meaning.

John 1:20-23 (KJV): 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am (S# 1510) not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am (S# 1510) not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
John 3:28 (KJV): Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
The Apostle John records these words of John the Baptist when the representatives of the Jews questioned him. This was not just an idle inquiry, but part of their role to examine if a prophet spoke with Divine authority. They also felt challenged because here was a new prophet who seemed to be working independently of the Scribes and Pharisees and the Sanhedrin Council. Please note the phrases “I am not the Christ” and “I am not” (Elijah). In my opinion, neither of these are connected with Exodus 3:14, but is possibly the start of a theme that John draws attention to by recording various “I am” passages. In other words it is the question of who a person actually is, and it is usually the authorities who want to determine their status.

John 4:25-26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am (S# 1510) he.
Here is Jesus confession that He is the Christ, but note this is similar to the language that John the Baptist used. The translators of the KJV have added “he” in italics to connect Jesus’ answer to say that Jesus is here claiming to be the Christ. They are suggesting by this that Jesus is not claiming to be the “I am” of Exodus 3:14, even though the “I am” of John 4:26 is identical to John 8:58 in the original Greek. In other words the phrase “I am” is a simple expression in this context, but seems a bit awkward in English, requiring the addition of he.

John 6:20 (KJV): But he saith unto them, It is (S# 1510) I; be not afraid.
This is in a different order and I am not familiar enough with Greek to comment except to say that I do not think Jesus is appealing to Exodus 3:14 here. He was comforting them by his words and the familiar tone of his voice.

“I am” occurs in John 6:20, 35, 41, 48, 51, :7:28, 29, 33, 34, 36, 8:12, 16, 18, 23, 24, 28, and each of these describe in one way or another who Jesus is, but it is the last two of these, John 8:24,28 that may be connected to John 8:58, as they are in the same context and spoken at the same time.

John 8:23-28 (KJV): 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Now again the KJV translators have added the “he” in both occurrences, and this gives the impression that they did not believe that Jesus was claiming here a connection with Exodus 3:14. It speaks in the first of his claim to a Divine origin as the Son of God v23, and in the second that he was the Son of Man v28. Rather than having some claim to independent Deity, he rather states his absolute dependence upon God His Father, “I do nothing of myself”.

John 8:58 (KJV): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Despite the context and usage of the phrase in John 8:28, the translators here with exactly the same original words have translated this as “I am” and not “I am he”. They thus leave wide open the suggestion that this connects with Exodus 3:14. In my opinion the same phrase occurring in John 8: v24 and v28 qualifies how we should understand John 8:58, spoken at the same time to the same audience. My conclusion is that when Jesus says “I am” in John 8:58, he is claiming to be the Son of God and the Son of Man.

John 9:9 (KJV): Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
This is the blind man speaking and again the translators have added the he to give the proper sense in the English. This particular usage here for the blind man again demystifies the expression in the Greek “I am” to show that it is not automatically a reference to what at first may seem to be the obscure words of Exodus 3:14.

In addition to this it is my belief that Exodus 3:14 should be translated with the future tense “I will be”. Therefore I have serious doubts that Exodus 3:14 is in any real way connected with John 8:58. A true understanding “I will be” from Exodus 3:14 necessitates that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not God the Son.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Ezra]

38 minutes ago, TrevorL said:

John 8:58 (KJV): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Despite the context and usage of the phrase in John 8:28, the translators here with exactly the same original words have translated this as “I am” and not “I am he”. They thus leave wide open the suggestion that this connects with Exodus 3:14. In my opinion the same phrase occurring in John 8: v24 and v28 qualifies how we should understand John 8:58, spoken at the same time to the same audience. My conclusion is that when Jesus says “I am” in John 8:58, he is claiming to be the Son of God and the Son of Man.

Trevor,

It is quite evident that you do not believe in the Deity of Christ. It would have made no grammatical sense for Jesus to say *Before Abraham was I AM He*. So you are using another one of your specious arguments to attack the truth that Jesus is very God.  Let us look at these verses carefully to show that you are deliberately arriving at a false conclusion.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894

εἶπεν οὖν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ὅταν ὑψώσητε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, τότε γνώσεσθε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι, καὶ ἀπ’ ἐμαυτοῦ ποιῶ οὐδέν, ἀλλὰ καθὼς ἐδίδαξέ με ὁ πατήρ μου, ταῦτα λαλῶ· John 8:28

 Literal: Said therefore to them Jesus, When ye shall have lifted up the Son of Man, then ye shall know that I AM, and from myself I do nothing, but as taught me my Father, these things I speak.

King James Bible
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγώ εἰμι. John 8:58

Literal: Said to them Jesus, Verily Verily I say to you, Before Abraham was [born], I AM.
King James Bible
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 Here was Jesus of Nazareth, approximately 30 years old, making an astounding claim.  That even before Abraham was born – over 2,000 years before Christ -- He had existed as the eternal I AM.  There is no escaping the fact that Jesus was claiming to be the same I AM who spoke to Moses at the burning bush, and who is called Yahweh Elohim (the LORD God).

What you are doing is blatantly contradicting what Christ said about Himself, instead of bowing down before Him and acknowledging Him as the great I AM.  All your lengthy posts denying the Deity of Christ can be refuted point by point, but that would be a complete waste of time. Those who commit themselves to erroneous beliefs never give them up (and several have shown up on these boards).

[TrevorL]

3 hours ago, Ezra said:

 Literal: Said therefore to them Jesus, When ye shall have lifted up the Son of Man, then ye shall know that I AM, and from myself I do nothing, but as taught me my Father, these things I speak.

Greetings again Ezra,

 

I appreciate your response. It may seem impressive quoting the Greek and giving a literal translation, but you have in effect rejected the KJV translation of John 8:28 “I am he”. Do you really believe that Jesus is claiming to be Deity in John 8:28?

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

 

4 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Rather than having some claim to independent Deity, he rather states his absolute dependence upon God His Father, “I do nothing of myself”.

He also says that the words that he spoke were only as a result of his being taught by his Father. Again is this saying he is Deity? He needed God the Father to teach him what to say. Jesus is the Son of man and the Son of God as he claims.

3 hours ago, Ezra said:

 Here was Jesus of Nazareth, approximately 30 years old, making an astounding claim.  That even before Abraham was born – over 2,000 years before Christ -- He had existed as the eternal I AM.  There is no escaping the fact that Jesus was claiming to be the same I AM who spoke to Moses at the burning bush, and who is called Yahweh Elohim (the LORD God).

I believe that Jesus was in the plan and purpose of God before Abraham, in that when God created the world he had Jesus as central to the ultimate completion of his purpose Numbers 14:21, Psalm 8.

 

I apologise for the length of my posts but I consider that it is necessary to clarify this important subject. In the previous Post I considered the various “I am” passages of John’s Gospel. The purpose of that Post was mainly to examine the meaning of the “I AM” passage of John 8:58. Many consider that this passage is quoting and alluding to Exodus 3:14 “I AM THAT I AM”. I also stated that it is my belief that Exodus 3:14 should be translated with the future tense “I will be”. The following is a consideration of Exodus 3:14, not only to determine the meaning of this passage, but also to check if Exodus 3:14 is linked with John 8:58. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The Name of God was revealed to Moses in the following terms:
Exodus 3:14-15 (KJV): 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

The word “ehyeh” is in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity.

This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this future work in delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

But this was not the ultimate completion of the Yahweh Name. God’s purpose with the earth was not complete with the salvation of Israel out of Egypt. God’s purpose was declared in the following, but sadly this was spoken at a time when the very generation that had been born through God’s deliverance failed.
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

The above raises the question of how and when will the earth be filled with the glory of God. One indication is found when the Psalmist uses the same words as Moses’ Song to speak of another deliverance:
Psalm 118:14-25 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

The above is quoted at length to show that there was to be a greater salvation in fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. It is evident from the context that this salvation is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the man of God’s right hand, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The greater deliverance is revealed even in the conception and birth of the child:
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The meaning of the name Jesus is revealed: “for he shall save his people from their sins”. Was Jesus to be an independent Saviour? No, the name Jesus incorporates the Yahweh Name, Je-sous, Jo-shua, or Yah-oshea. He was to be Yahweh’s Salvation. Here then is the extension or fulfillment of the Yahweh Name, Yahweh was to be, to become. He was to “become salvation” Exodus 15:2, in and through Jesus, the Son of God. Yahweh is the Saviour, Jesus is the Saviour. In other words Yahweh, God the Father is the Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yahweh has become salvation.

Salvation is now offered in the Name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 4:10-12 (KJV): 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[enoob57]

All of this above is moot by John 17 and a clear pathway of God The Second Person of The Trinity 'Jesus' came to earth
laying aside His abilities as God

Php 2:5-11
 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
So as a Good Shepherd leading His sheep home     Love, Steven

[TrevorL]

7 hours ago, enoob57 said:

All of this above is moot by John 17 and a clear pathway of God The Second Person of The Trinity 'Jesus' came to earth
laying aside His abilities as God

 

Greetings enoob57,

 

I appreciate your response, but you seem to completely dismiss the Scriptures and explanation on the basis of your Trinitarian view of John 17 and Philippians 2. A brief tentative answer, John 17 is speaking of the glory that Jesus had in prospect before the creation and Philippians 2 is speaking of the disposition of mind that Jesus had after his birth as the Son of God. He was like Adam and Eve who were made in the image and likeness of God, the form of God, but unlike them he did not grasp at equality with God.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[kwikphilly]

Quote

I appreciate your response. It may seem impressive quoting the Greek and giving a literal translation, but you have in effect rejected the KJV translation of John 8:28 “I am he”. Do you really believe that Jesus is claiming to be Deity in John 8:28?                                                posted by TrevorL

Don't you????? Apparently not! So may I ask,,,,,Why did you click on "yes" to our "Statement of Faith" when you registered here on Worthy? Not to be titled "unbeliever": or "seeker",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we do welcome EVERYONE to this Ministry,you didn't have to lie to join,,,,,So,I am asking you,,,,"Why did you do that?'

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Don't you????? Apparently not! So may I ask,,,,,Why did you click on "yes" to our "Statement of Faith" when you registered here on Worthy? Not to be titled "unbeliever": or "seeker",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we do welcome EVERYONE to this Ministry,you didn't have to lie to join,,,,,So,I am asking you,,,,"Why did you do that?'

you get on one side and I on the other and we'll get this answer out of them  

[TrevorL]

4 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Don't you????? Apparently not! So may I ask,,,,,Why did you click on "yes" to our "Statement of Faith" when you registered here on Worthy? Not to be titled "unbeliever": or "seeker",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we do welcome EVERYONE to this Ministry,you didn't have to lie to join,,,,,So,I am asking you,,,,"Why did you do that?'

 

Greetings kwikphilly,

 

I appreciate your concern but even though I only joined a short time ago (January 13th 2016) I do not remember seeing that a condition of membership on this forum was to agree with the (“our” as you suggest) statement of faith. I have never read that statement of faith. I have not worked out what particular view or denomination Worthy Christian Forum represents and if you could explain this I would appreciate it. I reviewed my profile and I could find no evidence of any condition on that page at least. No I am not a “seeker” in the sense that you suggest, but I do continually seek for the truth of God’s word and seek to modify my understanding and way of life. I am not an unbeliever. Have you carefully considered John 8:28?

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by TrevorL

[kwikphilly]

Quote

Statement of Faith

We believe in God, the almighty creator of heaven and earth.

We believe in the triunity of God. We believe that God is eternally One, and also eternally the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit — the three being distinct, but not separate. Each Person of the Godhead coexists from everlasting to everlasting.

We believe in the Messiah, Jesus, God’s only begotten son, God come in the flesh. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate. He was crucified, died and buried. On the third day, He rose again. Soon afterward He ascended into heaven. Now He is seated at the right hand of the Father and He will return to judge both the living and the dead and reign for evermore.

We believe all mankind are sinful and are therefore subject to God’s wrath and condemnation.

We believe that everyone is in need of God’s salvation. Mankind is absolutely unable to fulfill the heavy demands of God’s righteousness, holiness and glory. Therefore, God, in sending His Only Begotten Son, has accomplished redemption for us through the shedding of Jesus’ blood. Because of His Son’s death, God has forgiven us of our sins, reconciled us to Himself, and justified us by making Him our righteousness.

We believe that salvation is a gift received by faith alone, in Messiah alone, and is expressed in the individual’s recognition and repentance of sin, and the acceptance of the risen Messiah as Saviour, Lord and God.

We believe in the supreme Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. And that there is no other name under Heaven by which we can approach the holy throne of God. Jesus Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man.

We believe that immediately upon death, the soul of the believer is absent from the body, and present with the Lord.

We believe in the ongoing work of sanctification by the Holy Spirit after redemption for the purpose of producing life changing fruit — love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and self-control.

We believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God.

Home page,,,,,,bottom left "Statement of Faith",,,,,,next to ToS(Terms of Service),,,,,,,,,      Do you not read what you are signing on to? Worthy Christian Forums is not any "denomination",,,,it is a CHRISTIAN MINISTRY,,,,,,,,,why do you ask if "I" have "considered"any verses of Scripture,,,,,I am not the one who is questioning Jesus Deity,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if you are here,as you say,to seek Gods Truth then why do you "refute" what every single person here is trying to "show you",,,,,,,seems to me you have"your mind "made up,,,,,,,,,you seem to me to be very firm & set on your own understanding which is in complete opposition of what the Word of God says ,,,,,not in one single Scripture verse but time & time AGAIN throughout the Bible,,,,,,,in Jesus very own Words,,,,,,you sir,need to "consider: