Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Behold said:

The only thing that can keep you out of heaven is "dying in your sins"......As its sin that disconnect you from God.

So, God became a man, died on a Cross, and reconnects all believers back to Himself by personally sacrificing Himself for their SIN.

So, with Sin all gone, all PAID FOR by God, who was JUDGED FOR ALL OUR SINS ON THE CROSS =  Heaven is the only eternity a Believer will ever experience.

DONE DEAL.

OR, "IT IS FINISHED", AS JESUS SAID FROM THE CROSS = ABOUT OUR SALVATION.

 

First, what scriptures do you know that say the only thing that keeps a person out of heaven is "dying in you sins"? That seems to oppose a major biblical concept declaring all are in sin from birth and accepting Jesus is Lord, and being covered by his blood, saves us from death. Scripturally, what keeps us out of heaven is rejecting Jesus.

Second, where does scripture say God died on the cross? 

Third, Sin is gone? What scripture proves this? Sin is covered by the blood of Jesus. Here's wisdom:

I John 1

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So please post these scriptures, I would like to see them.

 

[Diaste]

8 minutes ago, Flsnookman said:

How about Eph 1:13 or John 6:39 or John 10:28-29 or 1 John 2:19? Or the hundreds of other verses that support OSAS? I find it fascinating that you can use a few  scriptures to support an unusual idea about the rapture but you fail to grasp Jesus message of eternal salvation and life everlasting.  To me the rapture is moot anyway, stroke,hit by a truck,raptured or old age when I die I go to be with Jesus forever as He has promised I have no need to fear otherwise. I often wonder if the people who picture God as hiding behind a tree waiting to snatch back salvation even know Jesus at all. They certainly do not have a relationship with the Jesus I know,love and serve. Meh, I guess all I can do is pray for them so I will.

1 John 2

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

John 6

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Eph 1

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

All of the above is true if we continue in the Spirit. God's promise is forever and secure but the behavior of people is not so sure as proven by this:

Hebrews 10

"26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

These verses warn us that we can indeed sin after we have received the Spirit. OSAS is a profound truth from the perspective and promise of the Father, but we can turn away and sin and lose our salvation.

More:

Matt 7

"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

The people in question in the above passage were casting out devils. That can't happen unless the Spirit gives the power to do so. Yet these people are told by Jesus they worked iniquity. OSAS from the perspective of mankind is false as mankind can look righteous and yet be a worker of iniquity.

More:

Ezekiel 18:24-26 

"But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die."

2 Peter 2:20-22 

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

It's easy to see the possibility exists for the righteous to turn away after they have received the Spirit. In fact there are many examples in the OT of just such a thing. David and all his troubles come to mind. Our salvation is secure forever by the promise of the Father, but he does not control us and we can, and some do, turn away. Therefore we would would be the agent of our own destruction as God does not lurk about waiting to snatch away our salvation, we have the ability to do that to ourselves.

 

[Behold]

56 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 

First, what scriptures do you know that say the only thing that keeps a person out of heaven is "dying in you sins"?

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So please post these scriptures, I would like to see them.

 

John 8:24 .... """I (Jesus)  told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."""

The reason this verse is so important is because  it's explaining what keeps you out of heaven....= "sin".

So, when you reject Christ, you are deciding to pay for your sins, to "die in them", and that is why a person goes to hell.

The Cross is the cure for Sin....... That's its purpose.

See, Salvation is all about solving the unforgiven sin problem.......Jesus is dying for your sins on the cross, ... and HIS death is a pardon for the sin of the world, offered to "all who would come".

So, when a person "rejects Christ", they are rejecting pardon for their SIN, and this means that instead of letting Jesus pay for their sins while they are alive, they have chosen to "die in their sins", unforgiven, and will pay for their own sins = Lake of Fire = after they die.

[PatrolMan]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's interesting because this is the place and there is more than enough space. This is a discussion forum and space has been provided for this.  I don't think it's right to attempt to shame by calling into question my mental state. That's never a valid argument but I welcome any effort to show me as incorrect. Please feel free.

I can only say that this site is not where you or anyone else would read over two hundred pages of research including the writings of over twenty theologians on this subject. If you want to believe that you are saved for ever, then I respect your opinion. As a minister, which doesn't make me any better then any one else have discussed this subject with a lot of other clergy members. Many people have a saying when it comes to discussing scripture which is " don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up" Please, I mean no disrespect in any way but we need to close our discussion and move on. This subject has nothing to do with salvation and it is a endless debate in which we both have expressed our belief and opinion.

[Hippie333]

Let's please put the topic back into discussion. There are other threads about OSAS  if you wish to continue there

God Bless,

Hip

[RustyAngeL]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Have you given thought about what you will think or do if you see the Temple being rebuilt and no rapture has occurred? Have you thought about what happens if you see the beast killed and resurrected receiving the awe and worship of the world and no rapture has occurred? Obviously this is an aside but it's relevant. Aren't you more worried about believing a false doctrine in opposition to God instead of believing anyone who writes a book? I used to be where you are. I believed the same thing for decades. I did a crazy thing and compared the words of the authors to the scriptures they were quoting. I found them to be incorrect as the Word of God tells us a very different thing.

I think it is a salvation issue. I have one enormous concern about the end of the age prophecies and it honestly scared me to my core. Adding to the prophecies of Rev adds the plagues to me, taking away from the same prophecies means my name is taken out of the book of life. Since the gathering, and many other prophecies in Rev, are part of this topic we need to be very careful to get it right and not add or take away. 

Adding to and taking from have to do with the people that do just that. Adding their own twist to things and taking away the things they don't agree with or don't want to agree with.  I don't see where anyone has added to or taken from anything.  I believe you have gotten it a little twisted around.  And I don't think anyone has said anything about your mental state.  

If as believers have to go through the tribulation I believe God will give us the grace to get through whatever we need to.  

As for me I"m thinking more mid trib, but still hold out hope for pre trib.  Either way I will see Jesus in the end and be in Heaven.  I can't think of anything better then that.  To live in total fear of what you are afraid of takes to much energy from me.  Being alone, and a widow I cannot and will not live if fear.  To me fear is the opposite of faith, and I am told to walk by faith.

[RustyAngeL]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

First, what scriptures do you know that say the only thing that keeps a person out of heaven is "dying in you sins"? That seems to oppose a major biblical concept declaring all are in sin from birth and accepting Jesus is Lord, and being covered by his blood, saves us from death. Scripturally, what keeps us out of heaven is rejecting Jesus.

Second, where does scripture say God died on the cross? 

Third, Sin is gone? What scripture proves this? Sin is covered by the blood of Jesus. Here's wisdom:

I John 1

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So please post these scriptures, I would like to see them.

 

So I take Diaste, you do not believe in the Trinity?  You don't believe God is, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? God did become man, died on the cross for us and rose again three days later.  Just so you know.

[RustyAngeL]

We still sin.  That sin is covers by the blood of Jesus.  To say we don't sin is a lie and even worse makes God out a liar.  

That is what is so amazing about Grace.  We don't deserve it but it's ours through Jesus.  I think maybe some wording along the way got mixed up.  Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

Blessings, RustyAngeL

[PatrolMan]

On 5/20/2016 at 0:28 PM, missmuffet said:

I agree. We have seen a lot of false doctrine on here but it sure is not the pretrib rapture.

You said it in one short simple line. Great job.

[RustyAngeL]

19 hours ago, Diaste said:

Have you given thought about what you will think or do if you see the Temple being rebuilt and no rapture has occurred? Have you thought about what happens if you see the beast killed and resurrected receiving the awe and worship of the world and no rapture has occurred? Obviously this is an aside but it's relevant. Aren't you more worried about believing a false doctrine in opposition to God instead of believing anyone who writes a book? I used to be where you are. I believed the same thing for decades. I did a crazy thing and compared the words of the authors to the scriptures they were quoting. I found them to be incorrect as the Word of God tells us a very different thing.

I think it is a salvation issue. I have one enormous concern about the end of the age prophecies and it honestly scared me to my core. Adding to the prophecies of Rev adds the plagues to me, taking away from the same prophecies means my name is taken out of the book of life. Since the gathering, and many other prophecies in Rev, are part of this topic we need to be very careful to get it right and not add or take away. 

I"m not adding to or taking from.  This is still not a salvation issue.  As I said it's all about Jesus.

Blessings, RustyAngeL