Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, RobertS said:

A third consideration is that if all the believers are raptured at the end of the Tribulation, and those resurrected cannot marry or have children (see Matthew 22:30 for details), there would be no one left in their natural bodies to have children. Where then would the army that encircles the "camp of the saints" in Revelation 20 come from? Isiah 11:8 describes that "The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den."  (Isaiah 11:8, NASB). Where would the children come from if not from being born during the Millennium?

I am not understanding the difficulty here! Why assume that there is no one left? Assuming that the other details you are specifying are correct, why do you assume that there are no unbelievers with natural bodies the populate the Millennium?

And since Revelation 20 describes Christians who died in the tribulation (clearly) coming to life and reigning with with Christ for a thousand years, is seems that there is likely someone to reign over, why would you assume there are not? Seems like you are constructing a problem, that does not exist, I don't get it, clearly I am missing something here, help me out Robert!

[Ezra]

6 hours ago, ZacharyB said:

Matthew 24:21-31 • Might as well get the most obvious proof out of the way first

Since this passage is clearly about the Second Coming of Christ, it is the least obvious proof.

1. The Great Tribulation is followed by the cataclysmic cosmic events with the sun, moon, stars, and heavens shaken (Mt 24:29). As noted in Revelation 6, this is an expression of THE WRATH OF THE LAMB.  But Christians are not appointed to wrath, nor do they cry out to the mountains and rocks to fall upon them!

2. Christ is seen by all the tribes of the earth, and there is UNIVERSAL MOURNING (Mt 24:30).  But the Rapture is the culmination of the salvation of the Church, which means joy for every saint, and the whole Church.

3. Christ sends HIS ANGELS with the sound of a trumpet to gather the elect (Mt 24:31).  These elect are the believing Jewish remnant being brought to Israel before Christ establishes a redeemed and restored Israel.  But for the Rapture Christ comes personally for His saints, He personally shouts an invitation to the saints, and He personally takes them all back to Heaven in their glorified bodies.

These are just some of the GLARING ERRORS of equating the Second Coming of Christ (WITH His saints) to the Rapture (Christ coming FOR His saints).

[MorningGlory]

 

ZacharyB:

Another thread on this topic?  Well then, let me say this.  Even the title is insulting to those of us who believe in PreTrib. And, before you get all wound up to pontificate....it doesn't make a hill of beans' woth of difference if you believe others are wrong.  Not a salvational issue and these threads do nothing but promote strife and division among the various groups of believers.

[Guest shiloh357]

26 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I am not understanding the difficulty here! Why assume that there is no one left? Assuming that the other details you are specifying are correct, why do you assume that there are no unbelievers with natural bodies the populate the Millennium?

And since Revelation 20 describes Christians who died in the tribulation (clearly) coming to life and reigning with with Christ for a thousand years, is seems that there is likely someone to reign over, why would you assume there are not? Seems like you are constructing a problem, that does not exist, I don't get it, clearly I am missing something here, help me out Robert!

There will be unbelievers in the mill.  But there will be no tribulation unbelievers during the mill.  Only tribulation believers still alive at the end of the trib will make it into the mill.   The unbelievers will be the children of those believers. 

Tribulation believers going into the mill will still have their current bodies unlike those believers who were members of the church who will have their new indestructible bodies.  

It is the offspring of the trib believers who will form the army that assaults the kingdom one last time after Satan is released at the end of the mill

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

There will be unbelievers in the mill.  But there will be no tribulation unbelievers during the mill.  Only tribulation believers still alive at the end of the trib will make it into the mill.   The unbelievers will be the children of those believers. 

Tribulation believers going into the mill will still have their current bodies unlike those believers who were members of the church who will have their new indestructible bodies.  

It is the offspring of the trib believers who will form the army that assaults the kingdom one last time after Satan is released at the end of the mill

Yes

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Rick, I agree with almost every word you said there, I have to note the exceptions though.

1. You said: "You are wrong to intimate that a true believer could ever loose their salvation if they are truly saved."

Well, Rick, you are wrong to imply that I am saying that a believer can lose salvation. I am not saying that at all. There are believers who think, that Christians can fit into the categories of the parable of the sower. There are Christians who believe, that people have free will, and therefore can choose to leave Christ. This is not what I believe. What I said, is true, and that is that "it can be argued".

2.

My response there is pretty much that same as the first one. You again, are wrong, because I am not stating that is is my belief that Christians can be lost. I do agree with you, that because some might have extra confidence in my opinions as a Forum Servant, that I need to weigh carefully, what I say.

What I cannot avoid though, is that some people will read what I say, and misunderstand, because they are not careful when they read (as you have just demonstrated) just as some are not careful about what they read in scripture, so they misunderstand.

Perhaps, before responding to me like this again, actually read what I say and understand it, don't jump to unwarranted conclusions. Later in the post (you must have missed it somehow) I wrote:

"However, personally, I do not think believers, true believers, will fall away from the faith over persecution, true believers will rather die or suffer, than deny Christ and submit to anti-christ."

Some people take posts, select parts of it, and build ideas based on cherry picked sections, not looking at the entirety of the context. Doing this, lead to errors, just as it does when they read, and mis-interpret the Bible.

I did read the entire post, and after reviewing it again, it appears that your statement that you don't believe one can loose their salvation went right past my tiny brain. I'm sorry.

As for Bo agreeing with me, I am sure she was only speaking to my statement about Eternal Security and not the latter portion of my post.

[WilliamL]

2 hours ago, Ezra said:

Since this passage [Matt. 24:21-31] is clearly about the Second Coming of Christ, it is the least obvious proof.

1. The Great Tribulation is followed by the cataclysmic cosmic events with the sun, moon, stars, and heavens shaken (Mt 24:29). As noted in Revelation 6, this is an expression of THE WRATH OF THE LAMB.  But Christians are not appointed to wrath, nor do they cry out to the mountains and rocks to fall upon them!

2. Christ is seen by all the tribes of the earth, and there is UNIVERSAL MOURNING (Mt 24:30).  But the Rapture is the culmination of the salvation of the Church, which means joy for every saint, and the whole Church.

3. Christ sends HIS ANGELS with the sound of a trumpet to gather the elect (Mt 24:31).  These elect are the believing Jewish remnant being brought to Israel before Christ establishes a redeemed and restored Israel.  But for the Rapture Christ comes personally for His saints, He personally shouts an invitation to the saints, and He personally takes them all back to Heaven in their glorified bodies.

These are just some of the GLARING ERRORS of equating the Second Coming of Christ (WITH His saints) to the Rapture (Christ coming FOR His saints).

1. False. Rev. 6:17 nowhere states that the cosmic events are the Wrath.

"For the Great Day of His Wrath has come/came." Simple logic says that the cosmic events of verses 12-14 could have directly preceded the Wrath.

If verse 17 had preceded the description of the cosmic events, then you would have a case. But it does not precede it, it follows it: so as it stands, you are adding your belief into the Word -- eisegesis.

2. Again, you are adding your own unsupported presumption into the Word. Nothing therein says that "the culmination of the salvation of the Church" --the Rapture -- is not part of the cause of the universal mourning of the unbelievers.

3. Nothing in Matt. 24:15-31 speaks of "the believing Jewish remnant being brought to Israel." Once more you are adding to the Word.

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Try, actually try, to get your eschatology from the Bible, instead of making the Bible, fit your eschatology.

Exactly.

[Omegaman 3.0]

OK Rick, thank you, now, since your gracious apology, I desire to go back and remove my critical reaction. I realize, that your concern for sound teaching for those who read these posts, is important and heartfelt. Since I will remove what I said that was critical about you misunderstanding of my post, I will leave it to you, if you want to edit are deal with anything you might have said better, but I am keeping no record of wrongs, and do not see a need for the site to either.

Now that we are on the same page about that aspect of things, there is no need for this post to remain either, I will delete it later, after I have assumed it has been read,

[missmuffet]

46 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

No Bopeep. I know that you agree with him, more or less, about eschatology. That 'side', you have already made clear in the past. What I am asking, is for clarification. You said you agreed with him (after his post). So I am asking, if you agree that I was teaching that a true believer could fall away in the face of persecution. My position is "no, they will not", as I hope I just also made clear in your thread asking if people are Calvinists of Arminians.

I believe in Once Saved Always Saved. I believe this from this verse. Romans 8:30. Our salvation is guaranteed.

[Omegaman 3.0]

31 minutes ago, bopeep1909 said:

I believe in Once Saved Always Saved. I believe this from this verse. Romans 8:30. Our salvation is guaranteed.

Ah, so in spite of your Arminian tendencies, we know you at least, believe in the P of TULIP, but . . .  that was that other thread!