douggg Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 28, 2016 1 hour ago, post said: no i don't have any problem with the "being taken away" being a gathering back unto Himself. but the gender mismatch doesn't jive in my head with the "who/what" being the ekklesia -- maybe by implication, the Spirit that lives in the hearts of the church and unites us as one body, because the Spirit is consistently referred to as masculine, but the ekklesia is consistently referred to as feminine in scripture. The gathering of the church is the gathering of the bride of Christ, which would be feminine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 28, 2016 1 hour ago, post said: besides, i don't see the members of the actual church doing much restraining of the world and its lawlessness. that notion seems to be a step down a dark & slippery path into papal-style human government. not that i have this all sorted out by any means, but what seems agreeable to me is that God has ordained some force which prevents the wickedness of the world from surpassing some threshold before the proper time, and at the time He has set, He will remove that ((whatever it is)) so that their vileness may manifest and His righteous judgement may be implemented. The members are not doing the restraining. No person in verse 6 is doing any restraining. There is no restrainer in verse 6. The verse is just saying that man of sin will not be revealed in his time until after the gathering, the rapture, of the church, the believers, has taken place. Verse 7 is that Jesus is allowing people to fall away, permitting it to happen, until the time comes, and then the church will be raptured out of the world, and afterward the man of sin commits his act of claiming to be God in verse 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted May 28, 2016 14 minutes ago, douggg said: The gathering of the church is the gathering of the bride of Christ, which would be feminine. the church is not mentioned in these two verses at all, and any gathering only by an implication that is not specifically spelled out in the text at all, when it says the 'restrainer' will be removed. the only feminine word in the two verses at all is the "mystery of iniquity" in verse 7. what i'm saying is that all the references to the "restrainer" are definitely masculine. that jives just on the basis of grammar with the restrainer being Christ Himself, or the Spirit - both consistently masculine in the grammar - but not with the church body itself being the restrainer - because as far as i know it is consistently feminine throughout the Bible. if we understand that the restrainer is removed if/when the church body is removed, because it is present inhabiting believers, that jives with the grammar of the text, but saying that it's the body of believers itself that do the restraining doesn't jive, because the grammar has the wrong gender. when Paul is talking about the "restrainer" he's talking about something using a masculine grammar. like i said, if you think this is obliquely referring to rapture, sure, that makes a certain amount of sense and doesn't have any immediate contradiction in what the scripture actually says and how it is written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted May 28, 2016 31 minutes ago, douggg said: The members are not doing the restraining. No person in verse 6 is doing any restraining. There is no restrainer in verse 6. we're reading the same Bible, right? 1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? 6 And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, 8 and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming.((quoting HCSB)) there's certainly some restraining going on in verse 6, which certainly implies there is a restrainer, which is specifically stated in verse 7. what (who) is being restrained is 'the man of lawlessness' -- this is spelled out specifically in verse 3. the members of the body are not doing the restraining - Paul says they know the restrainer (verse 6), not that they 'are' the restrainer; plus the gender mismatch i discussed. the Lord's coming will not occur until first a great apostasy and the revealing of the 'son of destruction' (verse 3) and His coming is synonymous with 'our being gathered to Him' (verse 1). apparently someone had forged a letter and/or prophesied by a false spirit that the people in Thessalonica had missed the boat; this is about reassurance, and clarifying the order of events. actually now reading this, there's an issue with the rapture occurring previous to the revealing of the man of sin: Paul speaks of the Lord's coming and our gathering as the same 'day of the Lord' -- but says that the Lord will destroy the man of iniquity with the brightness of His coming. so.. kind alooks like the man is revealed before His coming destroys Him, right? must be a 2nd and a 3rd coming i've heard that taught too, btw. but back to the text, it's all one thought. verse numbers were added to the scripture just a couple hundred years ago, for convenience of study -- there's no reason to break up the text into tiny bites as though it is disconnected. this man of iniquity is revealed after the restrainer is removed, but that doesn't mean he doesn't already oppose and exalt himself over every so-called god, claiming to himself be God - all those verbs in verse 4 are present tense. i realize the NIV and some others translate them into English as though they are future - because they're trying to relate the translators interpretation of the meaning of the text, not to literally give a word-for-word translation, but thought-for-thought, but the Greek grammar is present tense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 28, 2016 23 minutes ago, post said: what i'm saying is that all the references to the "restrainer" Please copy and paste the bible verse which you are finding the word "restrainer". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted May 28, 2016 6 minutes ago, douggg said: Please copy and paste the bible verse which you are finding the word "restrainer". please describe what the phrase "the one now restraining" means 3588 [e] ho ὁ the [one] Art-NMS 2722 [e] katechōn κατέχων restraining [it] V-PPA-NMS this is all i'll say any further; i'm not here to quarrel over words. we know what the scripture says about that kind of business: it is of no value and only ruins the listener. i've already put in enough time trying to have 'discussions' with Enoch; no need to go through that kind of mess ever again, or i would not have gained even wisdom from it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,763 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 12,161 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2016 20 minutes ago, post said: please describe what the phrase "the one now restraining" means 3588 [e] ho ὁ the [one] Art-NMS 2722 [e] katechōn κατέχων restraining [it] V-PPA-NMS this is all i'll say any further; i'm not here to quarrel over words. we know what the scripture says about that kind of business: it is of no value and only ruins the listener. i've already put in enough time trying to have 'discussions' with Enoch; no need to go through that kind of mess ever again, or i would not have gained even wisdom from it! I hear you Post, this whole thread is not very edifying , I'm done with it too.. There is just no good conversation to discuss anything.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted May 28, 2016 On 26/05/2016 at 11:45 PM, angels4u said: We have a thread going about the restrainer The holy Spirit who lives in the Christians when they get raptured. The restrainer is Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted May 28, 2016 10 minutes ago, OakWood said: The restrainer is Michael. how do you get that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted May 28, 2016 34 minutes ago, OakWood said: The restrainer is Michael. I agree Oakwood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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