When Michael stands up

[WilliamL]

6 hours ago, ghtan said:

7 hours ago, other one said:

10 hours ago, Sister said:

No, Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven at the resurrection of Christ.  They have not been in heaven for a long time.

 

I would disagree with that since John was told that the things in Revelation are things that would come to pass.....    and it was written many years after Jesus was resurrected.  The vision in heaven that John saw has never been there and won't be until next fall, and will not be there again for at least 7,000 years unless the entire solar system's orbits are changed.

I agree with Sister. Not everything in Rev refers to events after John wrote. The birth of the man-child in Rev 12 more naturally symbolises the birth of Jesus.

Rev. 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after these [things].”

The "these [things]" were the events of the letters to the 7 Churches of John's time. Everything John was shown from Rev. 4:1 onward, according to the angel, was to take place after. That is the testimony of heaven, and you would be wise to accept it.

The Manchild of Rev. 12 is explained by Jesus himself in Rev. 2:26-27.

Rev. 12 describes events starting from just before the GT and for sometime thereafter, including the 1260-day period of Israel's judgment during the 7 Trumpets.

[other one]

7 hours ago, ghtan said:

I agree with Sister. Not everything in Rev refers to events after John wrote. The birth of the man-child in Rev 12 more naturally symbolises the birth of Jesus.

look at the context of the entire chapter.....  it has to do with removing Satan and the fallen ones from access to heaven.  I have to ask, when did John have this vision....   when did the woman flee to the wilderness...   when was the woman given the wings of an egle and when did the devil send out water that God swallowed......

I don't see this as happening yet...

[ghtan]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after these [things].”

The "these [things]" were the events of the letters to the 7 Churches of John's time. Everything John was shown from Rev. 4:1 onward, according to the angel, was to take place after. That is the testimony of heaven, and you would be wise to accept it.

The Manchild of Rev. 12 is explained by Jesus himself in Rev. 2:26-27.

Rev. 12 describes events starting from just before the GT and for sometime thereafter, including the 1260-day period of Israel's judgment during the 7 Trumpets.

I don't think 2:26-27 refers to man-child. Do say plainly who or what you think is the man-child if not Jesus.

[ghtan]

5 hours ago, other one said:

look at the context of the entire chapter.....  it has to do with removing Satan and the fallen ones from access to heaven.  I have to ask, when did John have this vision....   when did the woman flee to the wilderness...   when was the woman given the wings of an egle and when did the devil send out water that God swallowed......

I don't see this as happening yet...

The entire chapter could span centuries. If you think the man-child is not Jesus, who or what is he?

[missmuffet]

Michael the archangel has, it seems, a prominent role in the events of the end times. Daniel was told by the angel of the Lord that, during the time of the end, Michael will “arise” and there would be a time of unsurpassed trouble—a reference to the Great Tribulation (Daniel 12:1). Israel is guaranteed protection during this time, which will be followed by a great resurrection of the dead—some to everlasting life and others to everlasting shame (Daniel 12:2). The rapture of the church will be accompanied by “the voice of the archangel” (1 Thessalonians 4:16); this could be a reference to Michael, but Scripture does not specifically name him here.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Michael-the-archangel.html

[other one]

36 minutes ago, ghtan said:

The entire chapter could span centuries. If you think the man-child is not Jesus, who or what is he?

it is a vision in the skies.......    and the context tells what to look for....    it is not speaking of the actual birth of Jesus......    but the alignment of the stars.

[ghtan]

5 hours ago, other one said:

it is a vision in the skies.......    and the context tells what to look for....    it is not speaking of the actual birth of Jesus......    but the alignment of the stars.

all the more reason to agree with Sister.

[Sister]

21 hours ago, ghtan said:

I agree with Sister. Not everything in Rev refers to events after John wrote. The birth of the man-child in Rev 12 more naturally symbolises the birth of Jesus.

Thank you ghtan, I'm glad you can also see this.

[Sister]

13 hours ago, other one said:

look at the context of the entire chapter.....  it has to do with removing Satan and the fallen ones from access to heaven.  I have to ask, when did John have this vision....   when did the woman flee to the wilderness...   when was the woman given the wings of an egle and when did the devil send out water that God swallowed......

I don't see this as happening yet...

Hi other one

The whole purpose of Rev chapter 12 is to start off by showing us who the true Zion is.  She's depicted as a woman and she is "God's teachings".  If we dwell in Zion, we live according to God's teachings, not the world's.

Zion appeared to Israel first.  God's teachings are heavenly, from above, and Israel were resting on God.  They were the first to enter into Zion (spiritually), by following God's instructions, and during the millennium will be the last also as they will be taught and will teach the gentiles Zion's ways (truth).  They were chosen for both parts, the beginning, and the end, as it's in God's plan. 

 Revelation 12:1   And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

This woman Zion which dwells in heaven is covered with the sun (truth).  The moon under her feet shows she's from above, higher than the earth, not from below.  She is heavenly.  God's laws come out of heaven.

Hebrews 12:22   But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 Revelation 12:2   And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Jesus was born out of this woman (spiritually speaking).  He was born out of God's teachings....his doctrine, and sent for this very reason. 

God is just using symbolism to show us how he compares his teachings to a woman, because a woman gives birth and multiplies.  In Zion, God's doctrine spreads.

Before Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph had to flee to Egypt.  These were the labour pains.  Persecution before the arrival of Christ. 
 

   Revelation 12:3   And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

The dragon still had access to heaven.  God is only going to give him 7 major kingdoms and the 7th one will have ten horns. We find out in Ch 13.  Notice the 10 horns have no crowns yet?

 

Revelation 12:4   And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
 

The dragon's own tail cast a third of the angels to the earth.  This is not God casting them out...yet.  Satan did not want Jesus to be born because he was trying to stop that doctrine of the NT.  This woman the dragon stood before is not Mary, although Satan did try to stop her also, but this woman is Zion (God's teachings of the NT through Jesus).  Jesus delivered this woman's doctrine, we all know this.

  Revelation 12:5   And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And she...Zion..brought forth a man child (Jesus).  Zion's child was caught up to God at Christ's resurrection.  This is history, but it's showing us the story in short from beginning, and it continues...to the end.

 

 Revelation 12:6   And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

After Jesus was taken up, the apostles who received their teachings from the woman (God's teachings) had to flee from Paul who was hunting them down, trying to stop this doctrine from spreading.  But God kept his teachings hidden in the world with only a handful (the apostles), and they kept this woman (her teachings) alive, metaphorically speaking by putting all the NT testimonies together in writing, and sending copies out and her teachings to the churches making it possible for us to have access also today.  They were hunted by Paul for nearly 3 1/2 yrs.  This wilderness they were hid in is "the world"

 

 Revelation 12:7   And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
This is going in order.  The man child Jesus is already crucified and risen being taken up to God.  Satan used Paul to go after all Christians, straight after Jesus was killed, especially hunting the apostles who are spreading this new doctrine. Now at Jesus resurrection, heaven is being cleaned up, and Satan is judged and thrown out for what he did....causing Jesus to be killed. Satan and his angels are now guilty of all God's commandments given to them, up to this last commandment.

Hebrews 1:6   And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Jesus prophesied this just before his death;

John 12:31   Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
 

Revelation 12:8   And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Satan and his angels lost the battle.

 

Revelation 12:9   And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

There you have it.  Now Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven into the earth, and I would say by Jesus himself, seeing as they were commanded to worship him and did not, so Jesus is using his authority to shame them and bring them low.

 

Revelation 12:10   And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Read carefully, NOW is COME salvation, and STRENGTH, and the kingdom of our God, and THE POWER OF HIS CHRIST, for the ACCUSER is CAST DOWN - SENT AWAY.  TO THE EARTH NOW.  He's barred from heaven and shamed, brought low, kicked out of his natural habitation, which is why the dragon has great wrath.  Satan and his angels are all here on the earth now, their playground is now their only dwelling. Earth is for the flesh, heaven is for angels,..their habitation taken away from them when Jesus conquered death.  He is given all power.  Now Satan must lick the dust, because he's here, not up there.

 Revelation 12:12   Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Don't think a short time to an angel is only 3 1/2 yrs, because they are supposed to live for an eternity.  Satan's short time on this earth started just over 2000 yrs ago, and he has another 1000 yrs to go locked up before he is totally eradicated.  Satan was judged guilty when Christ was crucified & risen, given his sentence already.

 

Revelation 12:13   And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

After Christ departed, Satan has gone after the "doctrine" of the woman.  Doing his best to contaminate it by twisting God's Word etc.  He has been doing this for a long, long time.  Just over 2000 yrs, and by persecuting all those who have this doctrine in them.

 

 Revelation 12:14   And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

A repeat of above.

 

  Revelation 12:15   And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

How many have been carried away by false doctrines, or unbelief etc through Satan corrupting God's word?....This started after Christ's departure and was present even in the churches back then.

 

Revelation 12:16   And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

God's word is still preserved today for us.  Zion lives.
 

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, ghtan said:

18 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The Manchild of Rev. 12 is explained by Jesus himself in Rev. 2:26-27.

Rev. 12 describes events starting from just before the GT and for sometime thereafter, including the 1260-day period of Israel's judgment during the 7 Trumpets.

I don't think 2:26-27 refers to man-child. Do say plainly who or what you think is the man-child if not Jesus.

Rev. 12:5 She bore a son, a male [KJV, manchild] who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Rev. 2:26-27 “And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— 27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’— as I also have received from My Father.

So you can see right off the bat that this authority to rule over the nations will not be exclusive to Jesus. The Woman of Rev. 12 is clearly a collective entity, made up of many souls, and thus not Mary -- I hope we could agree on this, anyway. Her son is also a many-souled collective entity, those who will become the equivalent of Christ's Apostolate at his former coming.

This manchild-group will be given great authority at the End of the Age, even as the Apostles were given in their day. Consider the following:

Rev. 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren [Satan], who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their souls to the death."

Who is the "they"? It cannot be Michael and his angels, who cannot die: verse 11 clearly refers to humans. The only possible antecedent to the "they" is the manchild-group of verse 5, who "are caught up to God" -- that is, to heaven. They will assist in the casting down of Satan and his angels, due to the great power having been granted to them to rule with Christ.

Addenda: I notice that in Sister's post just now, she quoted every verse of Rev. 12 except the key verse 11.