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Christ on His own Throne.


Marilyn C

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Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for your thoughts. Some of them will be for the topic regarding `when,` this throne is set up, so will leave them till then. In future when discussing I would appreciate that you only did a thought or two at a time. Save your other details till we get to them. Makes for much better discussion, bro.

Now I do agree (as I stated) that there are two persons of the trinity there - God the Father & God the Son (plus the Holy Spirit - 7 fold Spirit). You have tried to back up your thoughts but you have not used scripture, only your interpretation of the symbols. You said -

 `So, Yochanan sees a red Image with brownish-red shading representing the Father. However, this Person - God the Father - is shining brightly, seen as great flashes of lightning! So, why the "green rainbow" around the throne? It's the AFTER-IMAGE of what a person would see looking at a shining, red Image! The throne of God has a green AURA around it.`

The important point regarding this throne, this authority & power, is ` a throne set in heaven.` This throne is `set up,` it is appointed, & authorized by God the Father & given to His Son. This is not the `throne` of the Godhead, the source of all power & authority, as that is beyond all created things. This `throne,` authority & rulership is the fulfilment of the Father`s prophecy -

`I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)

Please note that this thread is specifically regarding this throne - who, what, where, & why but I will not talk regarding the when till another thread. So please, one point at a time.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On June 16, 2016 at 3:32 AM, shiloh357 said:

He has provided us with no physical image of himself.   We have no idea what He looks like.

Shalom, Shiloh357.

I agree with you. First, we are told that God is Spirit...

John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
KJV

And, second, not only "have we no idea what He looks like," but we are COMMANDED not to make any images of what we THINK He might look like!

Exodus 20:3-6
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
KJV

When people have done this in the past, they have ALWAYS gotten their images wrong!

Exodus 32:1-20
1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.
KJV

Romans 1:18-25
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
KJV

So, it is best NEVER to use our imaginations to envision how God must look!

John 3:6
8 The wind (Greek: pneuma, also translated as "spirit") bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit (same Greek word).
KJV

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17 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for your thoughts. Some of them will be for the topic regarding `when,` this throne is set up, so will leave them till then. In future when discussing I would appreciate that you only did a thought or two at a time. Save your other details till we get to them. Makes for much better discussion, bro.

Now I do agree (as I stated) that there are two persons of the trinity there - God the Father & God the Son (plus the Holy Spirit - 7 fold Spirit). You have tried to back up your thoughts but you have not used scripture, only your interpretation of the symbols. You said -

 `So, Yochanan sees a red Image with brownish-red shading representing the Father. However, this Person - God the Father - is shining brightly, seen as great flashes of lightning! So, why the "green rainbow" around the throne? It's the AFTER-IMAGE of what a person would see looking at a shining, red Image! The throne of God has a green AURA around it.`

The important point regarding this throne, this authority & power, is ` a throne set in heaven.` This throne is `set up,` it is appointed, & authorized by God the Father & given to His Son. This is not the `throne` of the Godhead, the source of all power & authority, as that is beyond all created things. This `throne,` authority & rulership is the fulfilment of the Father`s prophecy -

`I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)

Please note that this thread is specifically regarding this throne - who, what, where, & why but I will not talk regarding the when till another thread. So please, one point at a time.

 

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Got it, but you should know that God's "holy hill of Tsiyown" is also a LITERAL place in Israel, not some figurative place in some mythical place called "Heaven!" The "throne set in heaven" or the "throne set in the sky" is a throne on the top of this mountain!

Oh, yeah, verses:

2 Samuel 5:7
7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.
KJV

1 Kings 8:1
1 Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto king Solomon in Jerusalem, that they might bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of the city of David, which is Zion.
KJV

1 Chronicles 11:5
5 And the inhabitants of Jebus said to David, Thou shalt not come hither. Nevertheless David took the castle of Zion, which is the city of David.
KJV

2 Chronicles 5:2
2 Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of the city of David, which is Zion.
KJV

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1 minute ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Got it, but you should know that God's "holy hill of Tsiyown" is also a LITERAL place in Israel, not some figurative place in some mythical place called "Heaven!" The "throne set in heaven" or the "throne set in the sky" is a throne on the top of this mountain!

Hi Retrobyter,

Great. Yes I do know (thank you) that the holy hill is also a place in Israel. However the source of the earthly rulership is the `above` Jerusalem.

`...the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.` (Romans 4: 26)

`...you have come to Mount Zion & to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,......` (Heb. 12: 22)

Marilyn. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retrobyter,

Great. Yes I do know (thank you) that the holy hill is also a place in Israel. However the source of the earthly rulership is the `above` Jerusalem.

`...the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.` (Romans 4: 26)

`...you have come to Mount Zion & to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,......` (Heb. 12: 22)

Marilyn. 

 

Shalom, Marilyn.

But, to what is the "Jerusalem above" compared in Galatians 4? It is not compared to the "Jerusalem below"; it's compared to Mount Sinai!

Also, the seed of Abraham through his wife Sarah, Isaac, is being compared to the seed of Avraham through her bondwoman ("slave") Hagar, Ishmael! Keep the proportional analogies correct, and you should have less trouble understanding what Paul was talking about.

Galatians 4:22-31
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid (Hagar), the other by a freewoman (Sarah).
23 But he who was of the bondwoman (Ishmael) was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman (Isaac) was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar (Hagar) is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above (that is, on the GREATER mountain, Mount Zion) is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh (Ishmael) persecuted him that was born after the Spirit (Isaac), even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman (Hagar) and her son (Ishmael): for the son of the bondwoman (Ishmael) shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman (Isaac).
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman (Hagar), but of the free (Sarah).
KJV

Now, regarding Hebrews 12:22, that's an ENTIRELY different matter! There, we find in the Greek something that is also found in the Hebrew of Psalm 48:1-2:

Psalm 48:1-2
1 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.
KJV

There is a "confusion" of the mountain with the city, Jerusalem, in BOTH locations. In other words, in both of these passages, the city IS the mountain! Both of these passages, imo, are talking about the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 and 22. As I've said in other places on this forum, I believe that the New Jerusalem will generally have the shape of a pyramid, with God's throne and Yeshua`s throne being in the capstone - the "head stone of the corner" (Psalm 118:22). (I have a whole list of reasons why I believe this to be true.) I also believe that the New Jerusalem will LAND on the New Earth. (I also have another whole list for why I believe this to be true.) Therefore, this city, 1,500 miles long x 1,500 miles wide x 1,500 miles high, will definitely be a mountain to dwarf all others, even the 5.5-mile-high Mount Everest. 

That's why we also read in prophecy:

Zech 4:6-7
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
KJV

Something that I believe should give you pause to consider: In Revelation 21:2, the city is said to come down from God "out of heaven" (Greek: "ek tou ouranou" = "out of-the sky"). This is just one of the many reasons I have for why I believe that the city lands; it comes "OUT of the sky!" Little kids will draw pictures with the grass below their feet and the blue sky above their heads with a WIDE white space in between but that is because they have not yet learned about the "horizon"; however, we adults know that the atmosphere - the air we breathe - the sky - exists right down to the ground. Thus, "to come OUT of the sky" EQUALS "to land!"

BUT, the wording of Hebrews 12:22 is this:

Hebrews 12:22
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Greek: Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo = "Zion mountain and city of-God living, Jerusalem from-above-[the]-sky"), and to an innumerable company of angels (Greek: aggeloi = "messengers"),...
KJV

See, the Greek word "epouranios" is derived from "epi-" added to "ouranios":

NT:2032 epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:1909 and NT:3772; above the sky:
KJV - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.

NT:1909 epi (ep-ee'); a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the det.) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:
KJV - about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside,  have charge of, (be-, [wherefore-]), in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-) on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

NT:3770 ouranios (oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:3772; celestial, i.e. belonging to or coming from the sky:
KJV - heavenly.

NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity):
KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, this city in Hebrews 12:22 is described as a city "belonging to or coming from above the sky!" Thus, it's not called "heavenly" because it comes from some "Heaven"; it's called "heavenly" because it comes from "ABOVE THE SKY!" Today, we call the area "above the sky," "SPACE!"

Hope this helps.

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Hi Retrobyter,

As to Galatians 4 `Jerusalem` I was showing that there was an `above` Jerusalem, whereas you were indicating that Mount Zion was only on this earth, in a previous comment. 

 `....but you should know that God's "holy hill of Tsiyown" is also a LITERAL place in Israel, not some figurative place in some mythical place called "Heaven!" The "throne set in heaven" or the "throne set in the sky" is a throne on the top of this mountain!...` 

As to discussing the New Jerusalem, you know we have discussed that & we both think differently about it. Thus I will continue with this topic of the throne that is set up.

Marilyn.

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I think that it is important to understand why there are gem stones associated with this throne that is set up.

Jasper – tribe of Naphtali – meaning conqueror.

Sardius – tribe of Judah – meaning power & dominion.

Emerald – tribe of Reuben – meaning first-born.

 

These gem stones were on the breastplate of the High Priest. The Jasper & Sardius gem stones were the first & last & thus includes all in between.

Christ is the Great High Priest who is called `the First & the Last,` (Rev. 22: 13) meaning that He precedes & succeeds all other leaders, rulers of every age & in every realm.  

He is the first- born, the conqueror over the enemy, & is given all power & dominion.

Thus we see that it is the glorified Son of God who is being described & who holds the highest office of Kingpriest.

King – represented by the throne.

High Priest – represented by the gem stones.

 

God`s word clearly explains what His symbols are to reveal every aspect of Christ for us to meditate & marvel at His glorious person.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Marilyn C
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8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I think that it is important to understand why there are gem stones associated with this throne that is set up.

Jasper – tribe of Naphtali – meaning conqueror.

Sardius – tribe of Judah – meaning power & dominion.

Emerald – tribe of Reuben – meaning first-born.

 

These gem stones were on the breastplate of the High Priest. The Jasper & Sardius gem stones were the first & last & thus includes all in between.

Christ is the Great High Priest who is called `the First & the Last,` (Rev. 22: 13) meaning that He precedes & succeeds all other leaders, rulers of every age & in every realm.  

He is the first- born, the conqueror over the enemy, & is given all power & dominion.

Thus we see that it is the glorified Son of God who is being described & who holds the highest office of Kingpriest.

King – represented by the throne.

High Priest – represented by the gem stones.

 

God`s word clearly explains what His symbols are to reveal every aspect of Christ for us to meditate & marvel at His glorious person.

 

Marilyn. 

Tell me: What is so important about the gem stones that you would disregard what the text SAYS?

Revelation 4:1-3
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
KJV

The jasper and sard stone describe HIM, the One who sits on the throne, not the throne itself! And, Yochanan said "LIKE" a jasper and a sard stone! He was comparing the two (or three) things in COLOR! And, the rainbow also is not about the throne directly; it's the AURA surrounding the throne, not the throne itself! And Yochanan again said, "in sight LIKE unto an emerald," again comparing the COLOR of this aura with that of an emerald.

Furthermore, the text later says,

Revelation 5:6-7
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
KJV

This passage clearly CONTRASTS the Lamb (who is obviously the Messiah Yeshua`) with the One who sits on the throne (from whom the Lamb takes the book)! Therefore, the passage in Rev. 4 is NOT talking about Christ's (the Messiah's) throne at all! Be careful not to fall prey to an allegorical spirit; most of the things you read have NOTHING TO DO WITH SYMBOLISM!

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11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

`....but you should know that God's "holy hill of Tsiyown" is also a LITERAL place in Israel, not some figurative place in some mythical place called "Heaven!"

Since Retro believes that Heaven is the sky and God's Heaven is a *mythical place*, there would be little to gain by discussing Heaven with him.

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On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 5:32 PM, shiloh357 said:

He has provided us with no physical image of himself.   We have no idea what He looks like.

 

Off Topic, but this must be answered Scripturally;

Turn to Genesis, chapter one. God had been busy for a number of days during that re-creation week, making various CREATURES of the land, sea, and air. Nothing is said about them having the form of God Himself. After all those creatures were created notice what God says in verses 26,27, "....Let us MAKE MAN in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS.. ..So God created MAN in His OWN IMAGE, in the IMAGE OF GOD created he him; male and female...."

Right at the very beginning of the Bible, the Eternal God tells us that He created mankind in, not the likeness or image of the angels or any other spirit being, but He formed and gave mankind the IMAGE or LIKENESS of HIMSELF. God took the dirt of the ground and molded the shape and form of man from it to resemble the image or shape of very GOD.

God first revealed Himself in a mighty way to Moses from the burning bush. From that time on the Eternal and Moses were friends with a "buddy-buddy" relationship. This relationship between the Lord and Moses was so personal that it is recorded, "And the Lord spoke unto Moses FACE to FACE, as a man speaks unto a friend...."(Ex.33:11). Now our "no body" for God teachers will say either this is just a metaphor or God appeared as a human, but when in the "spirit" He has no body or face. Of course that is the answer they will give to any section of scripture where God appeared to men. But there was a time when God appeared to Moses IN THE SPIRIT FORM - the Lord opening up his eyes to see Himself in the spirit dimension, that the human eye can not
usually see, Read the example of the servant of Elisha in 2 Kings 6.

So close a relationship did Moses have with God that Moses was so bold as to ask the Lord to show Himself to him, not as a human but as He really IS. Moses' request is found in Exodus 33:18. Notice the reply from the Eternal: "....You can not SEE MY FACE; for no man can see me and
live."(verse 20). God did not say to Moses that He did not have a body and so did not have a face and so could not show Himself in the spirit form as having a shape. To the CONTRARY, the answer to Moses SHOWS CLEARLY GOD DOES HAVE A FACE AND BODY! He told Moses that no man could look upon the face of God in spirit form and live. How simpler can the word of God be in this matter? No theological degree needed to understand this verse, just believe it for what it says. In Exodus 33 18, Moses asked God to show him His Glory. "And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory." And God said to Moses; "I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; etc. God also said to Moses, "Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." Exodus 33:18-20.

God told Moses, "I will show you my BACK parts,". So if God has BACK PARTS it stands to reason He must have FRONT PARTS as well

Moses asked to see God's glory as expressed in His face or countenance, not to see His face apart from His glory. That Moses could have seen God's literal face is clearly stated in verse 11, where it says, "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face as a man speaketh unto his friend, and that he had seen Gods glory in a limited sense is clear from Exodus 16:10; and 24:17; so the request was for something he had not yet seen. Many others have also seen Gods face and spirit body apart from the glory of God.

God has a Spirit body, We know what He looks like because, besides the hundreds of Scriptures which plainly and accurately describe God, Jesus told us what He looks like. He sent Jesus His only begotten Son, and He said; He that has seen Me has seen the Father :thumbsup:

John 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Psalm 2:7, I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:33, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Hebrew 1:5, For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son.

The Word, who became flesh and was begotten of the Father looks like His Father, and we who were made by Him, in His image and likeness, look just like He does.

Gen 1:26, And God said, Let us make man IN OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS:  and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Now God surely knows what He looks like or these words and every other word He utters in His entire Word are totally meaningless.

By the way, my sons and grandsons look just like me, and so it goes.

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