Is there really a rapture?

[missmuffet]

9 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

What scripture differentiates the "church" from the saints mentioned as being present in revelation?

Where in the book of Revelation does the word "Church" appear?

[Steve_S]

7 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Where in the book of Revelation does the word "Church" appear?

It also doesn't appear in several epistles and doesn't appear at all in the old testament. The lack of something being named in a specific way does not mean it's not there or won't be there.

So, I ask, what specific contextualized scripture differentiates these saints mentioned in revelation from you or I? Do they receive God's wrath?

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

It also doesn't appear in several epistles and doesn't appear at all in the old testament. The lack of something being named in a specific way does not mean it's not there or won't be there.

So, I ask, what specific contextualized scripture differentiates these saints mentioned in revelation from you or I? Do they receive God's wrath?

Why does is the word "Church" not mentioned in Revelation 4:19?

[Steve_S]

1 minute ago, missmuffet said:

Why does is the word "Church" not mentioned in Revelation 4:19?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. There is no Revelation 4:19. Also, you keep responding to a legitimate question by asking the same question over again, basically, which I answered. Again, as I said, the lack of the word "church" being mentioned in Revelation does not mean the body of Christ is not present.

Are the saints mentioned in Revelation chapters 5, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20, not part of the body of Christ in your estimation? How does that work? They have put their faith in Christ and are now being martyred, but, they aren't part of the body?

[missmuffet]

3 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

I'm not sure what you're asking here. There is no Revelation 4:19. Also, you keep responding to a legitimate question by asking the same question over again, basically, which I answered. Again, as I said, the lack of the word "church" being mentioned in Revelation does not mean the body of Christ is not present.

Are the saints mentioned in Revelation chapters 5, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20, not part of the body of Christ in your estimation? How does that work? They have put their faith in Christ and are now being martyred, but, they aren't part of the body?

Revelation 3:10 states that born again believers will not enter into the seven year tribulation and God's wrath.

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

[Steve_S]

Just now, missmuffet said:

Revelation 3:10 states that born again believers will not enter into the seven year tribulation and God's wrath.

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

This is entirely out of context. Christ here is speaking specifically to the church at Philadelphia:

Rev 3:7  "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: 'The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.

Revelation 3:10 is a continuation of the message to that one church, out of seven.

But, since you make that statement, a much more important thing to ask is regarding this passage:

Rev 7:13  Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 
Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 
Rev 7:15  Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

So a very important question here. Are you saying that these martyrs who have "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb".... are they not born again believers, is that your claim?

[missmuffet]

2 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

This is entirely out of context. Christ here is speaking specifically to the church at Philadelphia:

Rev 3:7  "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: 'The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.

Revelation 3:10 is a continuation of the message to that one church, out of seven.

But, since you make that statement, a much more important thing to ask is regarding this passage:

Rev 7:13  Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 
Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 
Rev 7:15  Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

So a very important question here. Are you saying that these martyrs who have "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb".... are they not born again believers, is that your claim?

I am saying that these unbelievers who have entered into the seven year tribulation have come to Christ. The Holy Spirit led them to  realize that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Too late to have gone in the rapture but still they will be an advocate for Christ during the tribulation. Unfortunately most of them will die during this time. But Christ will raise them up to heaven.

[Steve_S]

19 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I am saying that these unbelievers who have entered into the seven year tribulation have come to Christ. The Holy Spirit led them to  realize that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Too late to have gone in the rapture but still they will be an advocate for Christ during the tribulation. Unfortunately most of them will die during this time. But Christ will raise them up to heaven.

Where does the bible say that? I understand that you believe it, but where is this specifically mentioned in the scriptures, or even alluded to in a moderately specific way? 

[missmuffet]

I believe it because it is in the Bible. I do not have any special theology skills. I am sure you have read the Holy Bible and the book of Revelation just as thoroughly as I have.

[Riccardo]

Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will desend for heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, & with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.      THEN   we who are alive & remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meat the Lord in the air.

I find this the  clearest scripture about the whole Rapture debate.  For a start its not a parable which is a story to get across another point. 

Rev 1:7. When Jesus comes every eye will see him.    Matt 24:27 His return shall be like lightning across the sky. Matt 16:27 His return shall be a glorious advent. His reward will be with him. 

To me this doesn't seem like a secret, these texts can't be ignored or pushed to the side to make way for a parable that can be interpreted in many different ways.  

WHEN does Thess 4:16 say those that are alive will be raptured up.           At His coming does it not.

The bible is very very clear, on this matter, it only gets confusing when we try to add what is not written.