Christian Conditionalism vs Traditionalism (Rethinking Hell)

[missmuffet]

Those souls who have died that are not believers are now in Hades. Those souls will reunite with their bodies at the end of the 1000 year millennium  and that includes those who have been buried at sea and those who have been cremated. All will be judged according to what they have done while in their bodies on earth. Will there be different levels of punishment for those who are judged at the Great White Throne judgement? That is possible because of Revelation 20:11-15. I do not know what that includes. All will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and they will be tormented day and night with a conscious pain forever and ever and that is eternal never ending.They will be very aware of their surroundings.

Matthew 25:41

2 Thessalonians 1:9

Revelation 4:8

Revelation 14:9-11

Revelation 20:10-15

[LuftWaffle]

Good night folks. I'm off to bed. I'll try and respond tomorrow.

[Omegaman 3.0]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I didn't know that hawkeye started a new thread on that topic.   The other thread is about whether or not hell is real, not the conditionalism vs. traditionalism.  I just thought this deserved its own thread.

Yeah, I have memory problems also, LOL. I noticed, that you commented in the thread that you were unaware of  .

In any case, it appears that the combination of the thread works, I am often not quite sure of what I am doing! Have a fruitful discussion friends!

[Hawkeye]

Got it

[LuftWaffle]

:

13 hours ago, missmuffet said:

All will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and they will be tormented day and night with a conscious pain forever and ever and that is eternal never ending.They will be very aware of their surroundings.

The bible simply does not teach that the unsaved will be conscious pain forever and ever and that they will be aware of their surroundings. As a summary of the traditionalist view this is all good and well, but my contention is that the bible does not teach this view.

For a person to be aware of their surroundings and able to experience pain means that they would have to be alive. The bible describes eternal life as a gift for the saved. The idea that the unsaved will also live forever has no basis in scripture. The bible describes the fate of the unsaved as death/destruction. The idea that people will be alive and tormented is the exact opposite of being killed and destroyed.

In terms of the proof texts that were offered, I made a rather bold statement earlier in the thread that virtually every prooftext for the eternal conscious torment view, when taken in context is actually better support for my view. Lets see if this claim still holds:

Matthew 25:41

You've offered "eternal fire" as a proof for an eternal hell and the assumption that is made is that if the fire is eternal then it must mean that the fuel would be eternal as well. So this proof text actually requires some philosophical gymnastics to work, but the problem is that eternal fire when used elsewhere in scripture doesn't imply eternal fuel, i.e. damned souls. Eternal fire simply refers to heavenly fire, or divine fire.

As such we read in Jude: just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. 
(Jud 1:7)
 

Here eternal fire clearly does not mean everlasting conscious torment. Sodom and Gomorrah aren't still burning.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

The above verse describes eternal destruction, but this is perfectly consistent with my view because if the unsaved are killed, forever losing out on life, then their punishment is indeed eternal destruction. What traditionalists assume is that this verse is describing the destructive process, but it's actually referring to the outcome. So again the "prooftext" carries certain assumptions that just aren't warranted. If the verse had said "eternal destroying" then it would have worked for the traditional view, but "destruction" refers to the outcome of the punishment. Likewise when the bible refers to our eternal salvation it does not mean that God is eternally saving us. It means the outcome is eternal. Now according to the traditional view the unsaved are never actually destroyed, they're always aware and always alive as you stated, so the verse doesn't really work for the traditional view, but it's perfectly consistent with a conditional immortality view.

Revelation 4:8

This verse doesn't really speak to the issue, perhaps you had a different verse in mind?

Revelation 14:9-11

Again before addressing the verse in question I'd like to emphasise how a great deal of the traditionalist case is built by taking the symbolism in Revelation to built a doctrine of a literal eternal conscious torment.

This verse is about the "smoke of their torment rising forever". If we look at how the same figure of speech is used elsewhere in scripture it again seems to lend better support for my view:

And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever. 
(Isa 34:9-10)

Contrary to it referring to a place where people are consciously tormented forever, the same figure of speech describes an empty wasteland. Smoke rising forever does not imply eternal conscious torment but describes utter destruction.

Revelation 20:10-15

The problem the above it is not a literal description of what will happen to the unsaved but a visionary depiction. Other images included in this vision are a prostitute, beasts with characteristics of bears and leopards, with meany heads and many horns. Morever abstract concepts such as death and Hades are also included in the lake of fire.

So what the traditionalist view tends to do here, is to take the beast and the prostitute and death and hades being thrown into the lake of fire as symbolic references, but then take the "tormented forever part" in a literal sense and reinpret all the other scriptures describing the fate of the lost according to this one scripture.

Whenever the Bible does interpret the symbols in Revelation it's nowhere near the literal meaning. The prostitute refers to the city of Mystery Babilon. Her fate is also described as smoke rising forever, but in Revelation 18:21 describes the city as being found no more.

Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more; 
(Rev 18:21)

Likewise the beast symbolises a kingdom which will be overthrown: "I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 
(Dan 7:11)

So if we look at the way scripture interprets the symbols in Revelation it seems to better demonstrate the end of the dominions of this world, whether those be wicked governments or the dominion of death itself, and that these do not describe unsaved individuals being living in eternal torment. Every time the Bible interprets the event for us it describes the end of something not a place where things are eternally preserved and living forever in torment.

 

 

 

[LuftWaffle]

14 hours ago, Cletus said:

Arguing about if hell is forever and ever and a day, or you just burn to ash and are no more is so silly.  

I don't think trying to come to a deeper understanding about what scripture teaches on a certain topic is silly. Now you may not agree with me and that's fine, but dismissiveness isn't a good argument.

Quote

And here is why...  You can not ever pay for your sins, no matter how much or long the punishment is. 

I agree, which is why I believe the punishment for the wicked is an eternal punishment.

Quote

No one can ever pay for their own sins so there is no reason to think hell has an end when it says...

My position isn't that the punishment is temporary but you're arguing as if that is what I believe. I think the second death will be permanent, so the duration of the punishment is eternal whether you believe in eternal conscious torment or you believe that the unsaved will be killed/destroyed.

Quote

matt 25:31 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I've addressed this verse in the post just before this one. This verse, when properly read in context is actually better support for my view than yours.

Quote

How do we derive torment in hell has an end with Gods Word using words like everlasting?  Shall we say argue, well it does not actually say you are in torment forever??? Please, God is specific with His words.  Its not a tradition, its the word of God. 

Ok, so it looks like your entire post is actually based on assuming what I'm not arguing, and responding to what you imagine I've argued. I believe the punishment for sin is death and I believe the punishment is eternal. So we're in agreement about the duration of the punishment. 

Quote

Even more... And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
That does not sound much like an allegory to me, what saith thou?  Allegory or nay nay?!

The verses cited describes Hades and is a parable about charity, not a description of the ultimate fate of the unsaved. The clear give away that this verse isn't talking about the ultimate punishment of the wicked is the fact that the man in Hades wanted to warn his brothers who were still living in their house.

This is a consistent issue with the traditionalist view, which is the  tendency take verses that seem to contain fire and suffering and employing them as proof texts for eternal conscious torment instead of taking the time to see what the verses mean in their own context. It preassumes the medieval concept of hell and then reads it into the Bible where ever it may fit.

 

 

[Running Gator]

1 hour ago, LuftWaffle said:

:

The bible simply does not teach that the unsaved will be conscious pain forever and ever and that they will be aware of their surroundings. As a summary of the traditionalist view this is all good and well, but my contention is that the bible does not teach this view.

For a person to be aware of their surroundings and able to experience pain means that they would have to be alive. The bible describes eternal life as a gift for the saved. The idea that the unsaved will also live forever has no basis in scripture. The bible describes the fate of the unsaved as death/destruction. The idea that people will be alive and tormented is the exact opposite of being killed and destroyed.

In terms of the proof texts that were offered, I made a rather bold statement earlier in the thread that virtually every prooftext for the eternal conscious torment view, when taken in context is actually better support for my view. Lets see if this claim still holds:

Matthew 25:41

You've offered "eternal fire" as a proof for an eternal hell and the assumption that is made is that if the fire is eternal then it must mean that the fuel would be eternal as well. So this proof text actually requires some philosophical gymnastics to work, but the problem is that eternal fire when used elsewhere in scripture doesn't imply eternal fuel, i.e. damned souls. Eternal fire simply refers to heavenly fire, or divine fire.

As such we read in Jude: just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. 
(Jud 1:7)
 

Here eternal fire clearly does not mean everlasting conscious torment. Sodom and Gomorrah aren't still burning.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

The above verse describes eternal destruction, but this is perfectly consistent with my view because if the unsaved are killed, forever losing out on life, then their punishment is indeed eternal destruction. What traditionalists assume is that this verse is describing the destructive process, but it's actually referring to the outcome. So again the "prooftext" carries certain assumptions that just aren't warranted. If the verse had said "eternal destroying" then it would have worked for the traditional view, but "destruction" refers to the outcome of the punishment. Likewise when the bible refers to our eternal salvation it does not mean that God is eternally saving us. It means the outcome is eternal. Now according to the traditional view the unsaved are never actually destroyed, they're always aware and always alive as you stated, so the verse doesn't really work for the traditional view, but it's perfectly consistent with a conditional immortality view.

Revelation 4:8

This verse doesn't really speak to the issue, perhaps you had a different verse in mind?

Revelation 14:9-11

Again before addressing the verse in question I'd like to emphasise how a great deal of the traditionalist case is built by taking the symbolism in Revelation to built a doctrine of a literal eternal conscious torment.

This verse is about the "smoke of their torment rising forever". If we look at how the same figure of speech is used elsewhere in scripture it again seems to lend better support for my view:

And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever. 
(Isa 34:9-10)

Contrary to it referring to a place where people are consciously tormented forever, the same figure of speech describes an empty wasteland. Smoke rising forever does not imply eternal conscious torment but describes utter destruction.

Revelation 20:10-15

The problem the above it is not a literal description of what will happen to the unsaved but a visionary depiction. Other images included in this vision are a prostitute, beasts with characteristics of bears and leopards, with meany heads and many horns. Morever abstract concepts such as death and Hades are also included in the lake of fire.

So what the traditionalist view tends to do here, is to take the beast and the prostitute and death and hades being thrown into the lake of fire as symbolic references, but then take the "tormented forever part" in a literal sense and reinpret all the other scriptures describing the fate of the lost according to this one scripture.

Whenever the Bible does interpret the symbols in Revelation it's nowhere near the literal meaning. The prostitute refers to the city of Mystery Babilon. Her fate is also described as smoke rising forever, but in Revelation 18:21 describes the city as being found no more.

Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more; 
(Rev 18:21)

Likewise the beast symbolises a kingdom which will be overthrown: "I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 
(Dan 7:11)

So if we look at the way scripture interprets the symbols in Revelation it seems to better demonstrate the end of the dominions of this world, whether those be wicked governments or the dominion of death itself, and that these do not describe unsaved individuals being living in eternal torment. Every time the Bible interprets the event for us it describes the end of something not a place where things are eternally preserved and living forever in torment.

 

 

 

I have to admit I have never heard or read this view before, but the more I read what you are saying and the more research into God's word I will say you are making a great case and you well have gotten me to change my view on this topic. 

You do an outstanding job of articulating your views and it shows this is a well thought out and researched view.

Thank you for your post

[Running Gator]

15 hours ago, Yowm said:

I wonder how many philosophize over hell without giving people God's rescue plan?

Why would you make such assumptions about people?  Agree with him or not, he has supported his view with scripture against all comers. 

[Jeff2]

If Hell is no threat, but a simple annihilation, why even bring it up as a warning? Why wouldn't the Bible just dwell on the positive; heaven? a reward for being right?

I do not see in the example of the Rich man and Lazarus that those that are in torment will have their pain eased.

2 Thes. 1:9, speaking of those who "do not obey the gospel of Christ"(8)... "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction..."

Is "everlasting"temporary? If it is temporary, why doesn't it say so?

Eternal punishment in Matt. 25: 41; 46. It juxtaposed against "eternal life" for the righteous. If punishment that is "eternal" is limited and temporary, does that mean that "life" which is a reward to the righteous just a "limited" time offer too?

Edited March 24, 2017 by Jeff2
My less than stellar typing

[Guest Teditis]

I wouldn't consider "annihilation" as simple or minor in any way...

Especially when compared to the Glory of living eternally with God.