Christian Conditionalism vs Traditionalism (Rethinking Hell)

[Guest shiloh357]

14 minutes ago, Hawkeye said:

John is using hyperbole here, to try and explain a vision he saw. (By the way, you should post a verse location reference for clarity).

Anyway, We should know here that smoke does not always equal fire. You can have a fire that was just put out, and the smoke will continue to rise- it's a mere vapor or memory of that which was once there. Furthermore the smoke rises forever, it doesn't say their torment is forever. Rather, the memory of torment, or another simpler way of putting it would be the final result of their judgement will be their complete absence.

We also have to look at the verb tenses in this passage. 

"Rev 14:9-11 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 

The verb tense changes in the passage from present, to future, and back to present again. the angel tells in advance of fate that will befall those who worship the beast. Then, the angel speaks of their total defeat. Then, the angel changes back to the present tense. The last verse is saying that unbelievers currently have no rest day or night because of the fate that awaits them.

 

 

The verb tenses in biblical prophecy don't always follow the same rules as they do in non-prophetic texts.   Notice in the same chapter (14), it says "Babylon is fallen, is fallen."   Well Babylon was not fallen at that point.   When it speaks of a future event in the present tense, we refer to that as "proleptic prophecy."   That is a device where future events are spoken of as having happened in the present tense, or as if already accomplished.  This device is used communicate the certainty of what is being prophesied.  So when it says, "they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast,"  You have that same device in play.   The changes in tenses are simply to emphasize that this will certain, without a doubt happen.  So, it's all still future tense and is talking about the conscious "forever" suffering that will take place for those who reject the Gospel and go to Hell.

And BTW, John was not using hyperbole.   It's really going to be that bad for those who reject the Gospel of Jesus.

[kwikphilly]

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but fire by nature consumes. It may leave ashes and remnants, but it destroys.                                       Hawkeye

We are not talking about anything "natural",,,,,,,in the natural,physical & temporal world we know,our finite minds,we understand that fire consumes,,,,,,,,we know that the supernatural fire of God is very different,why was the bush not burned up in front of Moses?It was not destroyed

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2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.
NASB  Exodus 3:2

 

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye said:

John is using hyperbole here

Right.  I take it we could apply that to the Gospel message also.

[Ezra]

56 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

And BTW, John was not using hyperbole.   It's really going to be that bad for those who reject the Gospel of Jesus.

Amen.  Once we go down this road, we might as well quit believing anything in Scripture.  That passage is too solemn for anything other than reality.

[Hawkeye]

All of revelation is a vision by John. He put down how he best knew what to do...

Take for examples our song "Another one bites the dust'' by Queen

This phrase is used in our society, as a tongue-in-cheek meaning toward death. It does not mean that someone bent down and took a bite out of the ground. If, 1000 years from now, a translator from another planet is trying to determine the meaning of the Queen song, how would he do it? He would probably decide that the literal meaning is not correct, and would find other uses of that same phrase and piece together a meaning that makes sense............. 

John used words & terminology he understood. We see this a lot in revelation such as "Streets AS gold" or "sea LIKE Crystal". It's not saying they are literal gold or cystal.

[Guest shiloh357]

35 minutes ago, Hawkeye said:

All of revelation is a vision by John. He put down how he best knew what to do...

Take for examples our song "Another one bites the dust'' by Queen

This phrase is used in our society, as a tongue-in-cheek meaning toward death. It does not mean that someone bent down and took a bite out of the ground. If, 1000 years from now, a translator from another planet is trying to determine the meaning of the Queen song, how would he do it? He would probably decide that the literal meaning is not correct, and would find other uses of that same phrase and piece together a meaning that makes sense............. 

John used words & terminology he understood. We see this a lot in revelation such as "Streets AS gold" or "sea LIKE Crystal". It's not saying they are literal gold or cystal.

Yes, in some cases, that is true, but you can't say that for the whole book.  Hell would not be one of those things.  John may have seen things in the future that people living in his day had no point of reference for, so he used the imagery that best communicated what he saw.  

Death and the Lake of Fire do not fit into that category.   You can't make everything figurative or symbolic in Revelation with a blanket declaration.  When it comes to death and hell, we are not only dealing with only the book of Revelation.

[Ezra]

12 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

When it comes to death and hell, we are not only dealing with only the book of Revelation.

Yes, we can begin with the direct and clear teachings of Christ regarding Hell and then examine ALL the Scriptures pertaining to eternal damnation. 

What the cults do is go to Ecclesiastes or some other OT Scriptures, but ignore the actual words of Christ. Annihilationism is nothing new, but with all the spiritual confusion that is all around us, and the attacks on Bible truth by so-called "evangelicals", too many Christians are being swayed by all kinds of lies.

[kwikphilly]

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King James Bible
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                2 Timothy 3:16

 

[woundeddog]

On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 5:13 AM, Hawkeye said:

Do worms eat live flesh? NO. They eat dead flesh, corpses.

it doesn't say that worms eat anything-- it says "Their worm" never dies-- that means the worms of their sinful desires-- if you where a smoker in life you will be having an eternal nicotine fit-- if you where a drunkard - you would crave a drink for all eternity-- besides being in darkness and unquenchable heat. the worm is a gnawing desire for sinful actions-- they will still want to sin but be unable to

[BreakingTheHabbitWithJesus]

Ah this topic, those who saw my post where I introduced myself would know that I hold to Christian Conditionalism, anyway, I have something to share:

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST (Mark 9:42-44):
-42: And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
-43: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
-44: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


THE PROPHET ISAIAH (Isaiah 66:23-24):
-23: And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
-24: And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.