Genesis Daylight before celestial objects.

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, OakWood said:

God created the Earth in six days. He even created the Sun and Moon on the fourth day so that we shall distinguish between day and night. It makes no sense that God should keep redefining a day in order to confuse us.

You are claiming that a day is just 'a period of time' yet in the same breath he specifically tells us that he created the greater and lesser lights so that we can distinguish between day and night

I apologize, I thought I had posted my full thesis of creation in this thread, I have in a few, but not in this thread, If I had I am sure you would see that it is a testimony to God the creator, and you might see it as factual, but until I post it, which I will later, you can't understand my position.

As concerning God creating the Sun and Moon on the Fourth day, that is not possible, Go read Gen. 1 again, God brought forth vegetation on the Third day, without the Sun (for sure) and Moon (probably) this is not possible. So as you see, the Sun and the Moon were not created on the Fourth. They were created on the "Second Day" at the 4.5 Billion BC mark. On the Forth Day the Seasons were created, or in other words the Axis or Rotation of the Earth was finally set. The Greater light is the Sun and the lesser light is the moon. The number one meaning of YOM is, if you look above at my Hebrew root words is....  From Brown: #3117 יוֹם yowm {yome} from an unused root meaning to be hot; TWOT - 852; n m OR....From Strong's: From an unused root meaning to be hot; so the Evening (Darkness) and the Morning (Light) was the first Day (first time there was light or HOT)  The Stars are HOT, HEAT, WARMTH.....The the evening was 400 Million years of Darkness, and the Morning was the Stars coming forth. And this PERIOD of time or HOTNESS (Stars) Lasted until the Second Day (Period of time) when the Earth and Sun were created, hence another HOT period, a different TO BE HOT period of time, referring to things under the Sun moon and on the Earth.  No use in me getting in deep to the details here, since I am going to post my thesis later, suffice it to say,  think you would agree, the Vegetation can not come forth on the 3rd day if the sun is created on the fourth day. You see, these contradictions are all wiped out by my analysis/thesis.

 

7 hours ago, OakWood said:

So are you telling me that the Sun sets only once in every billion years or so, or does a day actually mean a 24-hour period?

You are accusing God of being a schizophrenic idiot. In one breath he tells us how long a day is, then in the next breath he redefines the length of that day to mean 24 hours.

So when he states that he created the Earth in six days, it really means six periods of time which could actually mean six million years, six billion years, or whatever length of time you fancy - yet when he tells us that he created the Sun to rule the day, he's suddenly changed his definition to specifically mean a twenty four hour period!

Since you say the Sun wasn't created until the Fourth day, why would the first three days be under a 24 HOUR DAY ? So if the first Three Days are not under a 24 Hour Period, why wouldn't we concede that none of the YOM (Days) are 24 hour periods ? No, I am saying in the Hebrew, God said YOM, and by it the Hebrew writer meant a Period of Time at each instance, as did God. It was the English translators that put down DAY, not God or the original Hebrew Authors. 

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: ( The very first word used for YOM is "TO BE HOT" so God divided the Night from the HOT (Light) and YOM is used in different ways, according to the CONTEXT, we are speaking about a language with under 4000 words.  Also notice that this was the Creation of SEASONS, on the Fourth DAY, NOT THE sun, Moon and Stars per se, that came on the Second Day, or Vegetation couldn't have arrived on the Third Day. On other words, the AXIS pf the earths rotation was Set on the Fourth Day.)

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (  Sun, Moon and Stars, but Stars are still being created, so God started creating Stars 13.7 billion yeas ago, and created the Sun at 4.5 Billion BC. He set them in the FIRMAMENT to rule over the Day (Light/Hot) and Night (Darkness) not Day here either. }

 

7 hours ago, OakWood said:

Wow, I'm not surprised that there are so many people who don't believe in God, he obviously doesn't know what he is talking about!

I do understand that the word 'day' can actually be symbolic and sometimes refer to a longer period of time but never have I heard anybody change the meaning of the length of a day in one single flowing account. First the word 'day' could be any length of time, and next it specifically refers to 24-hours and all in the same chapter. No wonder we're confused.

Does God actually want us to believe in him or is he deliberately messing with our heads?

Why do you "assume" that a 24 hour period was what God meant ? It wasn't. Get off the English Train of Thought. Like I said, it means a Period of time, God understood no one at that time could understand what 9 Billion years was, plus he confused those at Babel for a reason, He didn't want man learning too fast, we are now learning all of these things, and sadly that is dangerous.  You are believing in what English translators said. Not what God said. When I post my understanding, you can better judge them my understandings.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Revelation Man

[enoob57]

34 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Why do you "assume" that a 24 hour period was what God meant ? It wasn't. Get off the English Train of Thought. Like I said, it meas a Period of time, God understood no one at that time could understand what 9 Billion years was, plus he confused those at Babel for a reason, He didn't want man learning too fast, we are now learning all of these things, and sadly that is dangerous.  You are believing in what English translators said. Not what God said. When I post my understanding, you can better judge them my understandings.

There's no assumption needed ... it is God Who has defined time and has done so in the begin of our begin and
done so with His Word

Gen 1:14
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
KJV
Reiterated for the hard heads:
Ex 23:12
Ex 31:15
Ex 34:21
Ex 35:2
Lev 23:3
Deut 5:14
It is why is was created so and reiterated so and all else is a perversion of the basics of hermeneutics!
Love, Steven

[enoob57]

On ‎7‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 1:05 PM, Willa said:

We are told that God is light in in Him is no darkness at all.  So I have to believe that created light differs from that which He is.  

 

This is exactly right or else you have God with need.... God lacks nothing but out of His Pleasure He moves
and does accordingly  

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

In Genesis 1, yom and ONLY mean day.   It can be used other ways in other contexts in the Bible.   But the immediate usage in Gen. 1 demands it be understood as an ordinary day.   Why?

1. The usage of the six day of creation is accompanied by the modifiers of evening and morning. 

Evening and Morning also mean Beginning and Ending. I borrowed this.......Furthermore, note that sunset and sunrise can occur at vastly different times of the day depending on the country and the season. For example, for about a month during summer, Gällivare, in Lapland (northern Sweden) which is inside the Arctic Circle, experiences sunlight 24 hours a day. Lapland is known as the land of the ‘midnight sun’. Conversely, for about a month during winter, Gällivare experiences perpetual darkness.4 Sunset and sunrise never occur during these periods, so ‘evening’ and ‘morning’ in this sense never occur! But the absence of sunlight or the absence of darkness, however, does not mean that there is no concept of evening or morning (or day-time and night-time). Rather than referring to sunset and sunrise, ‘evening’ and ‘morning’ serve as simple time markers for the beginning and ending of God’s activity as described above.

In any case, the occurrence of evenings and mornings before the creation of the Sun on Day 4 provides no reason to doubt the truth of Scripture in general and the Creation account in particular.

An Evening is the END of an Era or Period of time, and Morning is the Beginning of a New Era or period of time. Have you not wondered why the Evening comes first ? Quantum Fluctuations (God) set forth Inflation, and you had an after glow for 380,000 years, then you had DARKNESS (On the Face of the Deep) for 400 Million years (Evening came First) then came the Stars being Created at the 400 Million year mark (Morning/LIGHT/STARS/Warmth) 

 

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

2. When yom is used with ordinal numbers it is understood as 24 hour days.  That includes the seventh day.  You will note that the Bible always refers to God's rest on the seventh day in the past tense, not the present tense.   It is not an eternal day or a long period of time.  So, even if the modifiers of evening and morning are not present, the usage of ordinal numbers indicates that it was an ordinary day.

 

God Rested from Creation, that means he was finished creating, it doesn't mean God needed a 24 hour break, or ever a Rest, it means Creation was over, and God STOPPED His Creating, even though Stars are still being created, and have never stopped, How can this be ? Because God gave the order in Verse one for the Heaven and Earth to be created, but the Earth came not around until the 4.5 Billion year mark. HE ORDERED IT, it does not change His command, after the Sun and Earth came to be created, God set about dividing the Waters from the Heavens (Moisture) with the water from the Earth. Then he set about creating vegetation, then he set the Seasons, then he created the Sea Animals, then he created the Land animals, then Man was created at the 6000 BC mark, and God Rested. And even though stars are still being formed, God gave that order 13.7 Billion years ago. God has CEASED His Creation, thus the 7th Day is still in effect until Jesus Returns. 

 

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

3.  When the six days of Gen. 1 are directly referenced elsewhere in the Bible, they are referenced as ordinary days.

4.  Ancient people were not stupid and understood the concept of long epochs of time and if God meant for yom to mean "long periods of time"  the Hebrew language, which is far more precise than English, had the ability to communicate that concept.

That is why they wrote the word YOM, as God commanded, you have given ear to the English Translation, where they mistranslated the word. 

 

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

5. If God wanted to communicate to us that the six  "days" of creation were actually long periods of time, say thousands or even millions of years, the word He would have used instead of "yom" would have been "olam."  "Olam" would have exactly communicated the idea that each "day" of creation was really just a phase of a long indefinite period of time.

Sorry, there are 8,700 Hebrew words used in the Old Testament, and the Old Hebrew had like 4000 words, compared to over 400, 000 words in the English language. (I will post a article I read on this very subject of Yom while I was doing my in-depth studies. I think you guys will appreciate its depth. Olam has different meanings also, forever, everlasting etc. so would the English Translation have messed those up to ? And said each day was everlasting ? The problem is not with the word YOM but with the TRANSLATION. God no doubt used YOM, because it references BEING HOT/WARMTH, and the Stars and Sun (which is a Star) bring heat and Warmth, so God is measuring periods of WARMTH or periods of Dark and Light in accordance with that which he is speaking about, and the periods of time between these events. YOM means HOT/Heat and Period of Time, so God chose YOM, instead of Olam. I think the Jews say the First 5 Book were written by God, by direct order so to speak.

Word study of YOM Below............

[Revelation Man]

Word Study: Yom           

By Greg Neyman

© 2007, Old Earth Ministries

Published 16 March 2005

(This article can be freely copied and distributed, as long as it is unaltered and a link back to the original article appears on the page)http://www.oldearth.org/word_study_yom.htm

 

     The Hebrew word for “day” is the word “Yom.”  Young earth creationists have always argued that the word used for the days of creation can only mean a 24-hour day.  In this article, we will examine the uses of Yom in the Old Testament, and show that it can mean a wide variety of time periods.

     First, one must understand that the Hebrew language is not nearly as diverse as our English language.  Whereas our vocabulary is around half a million, the Hebrew language has only 8,700 words.  The French language, one of the poorest modern languages in vocabulary and the language of choice for diplomats, has just about 40,000 words or over 4 times the amount of words that Ancient Hebrew has.

     Many of the Hebrew words could be considered duplicates with only slight differences.  Thus, words which contain multiple meanings are common.  Such is the case with the word Yom.

 

Hebrew Dictionaries

 

     Let’s start with the possible meanings of Yom;

 

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press) 

"It can denote: 1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague "time," 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)."

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (symbols omitted)

from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adv.]:--age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone),  + elder, end, evening, (for)ever(lasting), ever(more), full, life, as long as (...live), even now, old, outlived, perpetually, presently, remaineth, required, season, since, space, then, (process of) time, as at other times, in trouble, weather (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), whole (age), (full) year (-ly), younger

As you can see, Hebrew dictionaries attest to the fact that the word Yom is used for anywhere from 12 hours up to a year, and even a vague "time period" of unspecified length. 

 

Other Uses of Yom

 

     Day is not the only translation for the word Yom.  Here are some other uses.

 

Time

 

     It is interesting to note that in 67 verses in the Old Testament, the word Yom is translated into the English word "time."  For instance,  in Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."  In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.  Again, in Deuteronomy 10:10, it refers to a "time" equal to forty days.  In I Kings 11:42, it says "And the timethat Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years."  In this case, Yom translated as the word "time" is equivalent to a 40 year period.

     In Isaiah 30:8, it says "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever."  In this case, Yom is equal to "forever."  How long is forever?  An infinite number of years...billions upon billions upon billons of years.  If Yom can equal trillions of years here, then why not billions of years in Genesis? 

 

Year

 

     Four times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "year."  In I Kings 1:1, "David was old and stricken in years..."  In 2 Chronicles 21:19, "after the end of two years" and in the very next verse "Thirty and two years old."  Finally, in Amos 4:4, "...and your tithes after three years."  In each case, Yom represents years, not days.

 

Age

 

     Eight times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "age."   These range from sentences like "stricken in age,"  meaning old age (Genesis 18:11 and 24:1; Joshua 23:1 and 23:2), and other times it says "old age" (Genesis 21:2, Genesis 21:7).  Genesis 47:28 refers to "the whole age of Jacob," therefore yom here refers to an entire lifetime.  In Zechariah 8:4, it says old men and women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, "each with cane in hand because of his age."

    

Ago

 

     One time Yom is translated "ago."  1 Samuel 9:20 says "As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, ..." 

 

Always

 

     Four times yom is translated as "always," in Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7.  Always here can be interpreted as a lifetime...for instance, we are to keep the commandments of the Lord always (Deut. 5:29).

 

Season

 

     Three times yom is translated "season."  In Genesis 40:4, "...and they continued a season in ward."  Again, in Joshua 24:7, "dwelt in the wilderness a long season," and in 2 Chronicles 15:3, "...a long season Israel hath been...".  In each case yom represents a multi-month period.

 

Chronicles

 

     When used in conjunction with the word dâbâr, yom is translated "chronicles" (27 times).

    

Continually

 

     When used in conjunction with kôwl, yom is translated as "continually" (11 times).  Once, in Psalm 139:16, it is translated continuance (without the kôwl).

 

Ever

 

     Ever is used to represent a long period of time, such as in Deuteronomy 19:9, "to walk ever in his ways."  Nineteen times Yom is translated "ever."  The old testament uses "for ever" instead of the word forever.  In sixteen cases of use of the word ever, for is placed before it, indicating a infinite period of time.  I will not list them all (consult Strong's Concordance for a full listing) but here is an example.  In Psalm 23:6, it says "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever."  Here Yom is translated as the final word of this verse, ever.  Thus, Yom in this verse, and 16 others, represents eternity.

 

Evermore

 

    In one instance, when yom is used in conjunction with kôwl, Yom is translated "evermore."  Deuteronomy 28:29, "...and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore;" thus representing either a lifetime or eternity.

 

Word Usage in the Old Testament

 

     As you can see, Yom is used in a wide variety of situations related to the concept of time.  Yom is not just for days...it is for time in general.  How it is translated depends on the context of its use with other words.

Yom in the Creation Account

      Even within the creation account, Yom is used to represent four different time periods. 

1. Genesis 1:5  "And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate a 12-hour period
2. Genesis 1:14  "And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate 24-hour days
3. Genesis 2:4  "...in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate the entire creative week.

     The fourth usage of Yom in the creation account is in the summary for each of the six creation days, "and there was morning and evening the first day". Yom is used to represent a finite, long period of time, usually either millions or billions of years.  To show support for this, consider the uses of Yom by Moses.

Moses Other Uses of Yom

     Moses, the author of the first five books of the Bible, and of Psalm 90, used Yom in many different ways.

1. Genesis 4:3  "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."  In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months. 
2. Genesis 43:9  "...then let me bear the blame for ever."  Here, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
3. Genesis 44:32  "...then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever."  Again, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
4. Deuteronomy 4:40  "...that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth the, for ever."  Here Yom represents a physical lifetime
5. Deuteronomy 10:10, "Now I stayed on the mountain forty days and nights, as I did the first time,..."  Here, Yom is a "time" equal to forty days.
6. Deuteronomy 18:5  "...to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for ever."  Again, Yom is translated as eternity
7. Deuteronomy 19:9  "...to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in His ways..."  Here, Yom represents a lifetime.  As long as we live we are to walk in his ways

 

     As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent 12-hours, 24 hours, the creative week, forty days, several months, a lifetime, and eternity. 

 

Common Young Earth Arguments

 

     To get around the obvious conclusion that Yom in Genesis 1 can mean millions of years, young earth theorists have come up with several arguments, none of which is supported by common Hebrew grammatical rules according to Hebrew experts (such as Dr. Walter Kaiser).  These rules were created by Hebrew language experts who are young earth creationists to begin with, thus their viewpoint is obviously biased.  They have a specific agenda they are trying to prove, and thus cannot be objective.

 

Ordinals/Cardinals

 

     Young earth creationists say that whenever Yom is used with an ordinal or cardinal number (1st, 2nd, 1,2, etc) that it always represents a 24 hour day.  However, this is not true.  In Zechariah 14:7-9, the "one day" refers to a period of time when the Lord shall be king over the earth.  In other places, some say that Isaiah and Hosea have numbers with the word day which are figurative (External Link).

     Some young earth theorists, including Jonathan Sarfati in his book Refuting Compromise, have addressed this verse in Zechariah an Hosea.  Although his argument sounds impressive, you have to recognize it for what it is...he is arguing for his young earth agenda, thus any rules that he espouses must be examined by true Hebrew scholars who are impartial.   Hebrew scholars do not recognize this fabricated rule.¹ 

     What Sarfati thinks is not important...what is important, as Dr. Walter Kaiser points out, is the intentions of the author.  We should not create rules that support our own agendas, but should strive to understand the author's intended meaning outside of rules.

 

Evening/Morning Construction

 

   In Genesis 1 Moses says "and there was evening and morning the xx day".  Does the use of evening and morning indicate a sunrise and sunset for each creative day?  First, let's look at what evening and morning are not.  They are not actual evening and mornings, as this requires a sunrise and sunset.  According to young earth theory, the Sun was not created until Day Four, thus there could be no sunrise or sunset for the first three days of creation.  However, God uses the terms evening and morning for those first three days.  Therefore, they cannot be actual evenings and mornings. 

    We are left with only one option.  The words for Evening and Morning can only represent the beginning and ending of the creative period, and not actual sunrise and sunsets.  Scripture itself sets this pattern for us.  Morning and evening are used figuratively in Psalm 30:5, Psalm 49:14,15, Psalm 90:6.  Thus, the evening and morning of creation can mean the start and end of the creative process that is attributed to that creation period.

     Young earth advocates counter that traditionally, church fathers have always held that sunrise and sunsets do not constitute a day, and they accepted the sun creation on Day Four with no hint of the first three days being anything other than 24-hour days.  For instance, Sarfati in Refuting Compromise mentions Luther and Calvin (page 84-86).  However, Luther and Calvin did not have the means of modern science at their disposal.  At the time, geocentricity was still accepted!  Don't fall into the trap of following the teachings of our church fathers.   For more, read Church Fathers.

 

Literal/Figurative Argument

 

     This argument says that you cannot use a word figuratively until after you have used it literally (see this Answers in Genesis article).  The author gives two examples, which appear to be correct and follow this rule.  However, is this rule valid?  I see no reason to suppose that it is.  You have to be careful with young earth claims about biblical interpretation methods.  Again, they will invent rules that support their cause, when there is no basis for their rule in Hebrew.

     In this case, it makes no difference which order the word Yom appears in, i.e. literal before figurative or vice versa.  Yes, these are the first words of the Bible, but they are not the first words of mankind.  All the time from Adam to Moses, men were speaking in their own languages, thus the literal interpretation via spoken language would already have been established.  There was no need to suppose a literal/figurative structure.

 

If God's Creation Was Billions of Years Old...

 

     If God's creation was billions of years old, how would He have written the creation account in Genesis?  One thing is certain...God is good at telling us exactly what we need to know.

     When God refers to a large number, He uses picture stories, such as Abraham's descendants being as numerous as the sand.  Why does He do this?  If God had said, "You will have millions of descendants," Abraham would have asked, "What is a million?"

     When considering the creation, if we broke it down into days, that would be 5,000,500,000,000 days, or roughly 13.7 billion years.  Do we need an account for each day of creation...of course not.  God in His infinite wisdom, saw fit to tell us the creation story by breaking it down into creative segments, each of which was attributed to a specific creative act or acts.  We need to give the early Hebrews of Genesis a break...they didn't have calculators like we do!

     One must also consider that time with God has no meaning.  To Him, 10 billion years is like a day.  Thus, it is no problem for God to put billions of years into one of His days.  Dr. Hugh Ross puts it best in his determination that the frame of reference for creation is the surface of the earth.  Genesis 1:2 puts the witness of creation on the surface.  But who is witnessing these events?  It is God himself.  During the first 5.99 days of creation, God is the only one present.  Thus, human time does not matter...no humans were there to witness the passage of time.   What matters is how God sees time!  Thus, a billion year day is only a passing moment in God's eyes.

     The creation account is written in such a manner for all people to understand it.  The issue is not how long creation took...the issue is that God did it, and that's all that matters in the end.

 

Conclusion

 

     With such a wide usage of the word Yom for many different time periods, it cannot be claimed that Yom in the Old Testament only represents a 24-hour period.  During the creation account alone, Yom represents four different time periods.  Rules of Hebrew, created by young earth Hebrew scholars, are invalid.  Because of their biased position, they are trying to prove their own agenda.

     Since humans did not witness creation, our own concept of a 24-hour day does not apply.  The only thing that matters is God's concept of time.  Thus, the only evidence we have to accurately assess the age of creation is the creation itself.  Since the rocks and stars say we are billions of years old, that must be the truth.  This fits perfectly with a literal interpretation of Genesis, and an inerrant Bible, and does not impact any other Biblical doctrines.

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

There's no assumption needed ... it is God Who has defined time and has done so in the begin of our begin and
done so with His Word

God didn't translate the Hebrew into English, men did, and in many places they translated it wrong. 

 

59 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

This is exactly right or else you have God with need.... God lacks nothing but out of His Pleasure He moves
and does accordingly

God was never the Light of this Universe, else there wouldn't have been Darkness of the face of the Deep for 400 Million years. God is the light of Heaven, where no light is needed. He created light for us by commanding it be brought forth.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Revelation Man

[FresnoJoe]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

As concerning God creating the Sun and Moon on the Fourth day, that is not possible....

Go read Gen. 1 again, God brought forth vegetation on the Third day....
without the Sun (for sure) and Moon (probably) this is not possible....

Why do you "assume" that a 24 hour period....
was what God meant ? It wasn't....

Get off the English Train of Thought....
Like I said, it means a Period of time, God understood no one at that time could understand what 9 Billion years was....

You are believing in what English translators said....
Not what God said....

For With God

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work,
thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant,
nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is,
and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day,
and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11

All Things All Possible

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:5

Can You Believe

Thou art the God that doest wonders: thou hast declared thy strength among the people. Thou hast with thine arm redeemed thy people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Selah.

The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: the depths also were troubled. The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad.

The voice of thy thunder was in the heaven: the lightnings lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook. Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in the great waters, and thy footsteps are not known.

Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron. Psalms 77:14-20

It

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

~

Be Blessed

For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Beloved Of The KING

For since by man came death,
by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

Love, Your Brother Joe

[da_man1974]

44 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Word Study: Yom           

By Greg Neyman

© 2007, Old Earth Ministries

Published 16 March 2005

(This article can be freely copied and distributed, as long as it is unaltered and a link back to the original article appears on the page)http://www.oldearth.org/word_study_yom.htm

 

     The Hebrew word for “day” is the word “Yom.”  Young earth creationists have always argued that the word used for the days of creation can only mean a 24-hour day.  In this article, we will examine the uses of Yom in the Old Testament, and show that it can mean a wide variety of time periods.

     First, one must understand that the Hebrew language is not nearly as diverse as our English language.  Whereas our vocabulary is around half a million, the Hebrew language has only 8,700 words.  The French language, one of the poorest modern languages in vocabulary and the language of choice for diplomats, has just about 40,000 words or over 4 times the amount of words that Ancient Hebrew has.

     Many of the Hebrew words could be considered duplicates with only slight differences.  Thus, words which contain multiple meanings are common.  Such is the case with the word Yom.

 

Hebrew Dictionaries

 

     Let’s start with the possible meanings of Yom;

 

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press) 

"It can denote: 1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague "time," 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)."

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (symbols omitted)

from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adv.]:--age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone),  + elder, end, evening, (for)ever(lasting), ever(more), full, life, as long as (...live), even now, old, outlived, perpetually, presently, remaineth, required, season, since, space, then, (process of) time, as at other times, in trouble, weather (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), whole (age), (full) year (-ly), younger

As you can see, Hebrew dictionaries attest to the fact that the word Yom is used for anywhere from 12 hours up to a year, and even a vague "time period" of unspecified length. 

 

Other Uses of Yom

 

     Day is not the only translation for the word Yom.  Here are some other uses.

 

Time

 

     It is interesting to note that in 67 verses in the Old Testament, the word Yom is translated into the English word "time."  For instance,  in Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."  In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.  Again, in Deuteronomy 10:10, it refers to a "time" equal to forty days.  In I Kings 11:42, it says "And the timethat Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years."  In this case, Yom translated as the word "time" is equivalent to a 40 year period.

     In Isaiah 30:8, it says "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever."  In this case, Yom is equal to "forever."  How long is forever?  An infinite number of years...billions upon billions upon billons of years.  If Yom can equal trillions of years here, then why not billions of years in Genesis? 

 

Year

 

     Four times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "year."  In I Kings 1:1, "David was old and stricken in years..."  In 2 Chronicles 21:19, "after the end of two years" and in the very next verse "Thirty and two years old."  Finally, in Amos 4:4, "...and your tithes after three years."  In each case, Yom represents years, not days.

 

Age

 

     Eight times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "age."   These range from sentences like "stricken in age,"  meaning old age (Genesis 18:11 and 24:1; Joshua 23:1 and 23:2), and other times it says "old age" (Genesis 21:2, Genesis 21:7).  Genesis 47:28 refers to "the whole age of Jacob," therefore yom here refers to an entire lifetime.  In Zechariah 8:4, it says old men and women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, "each with cane in hand because of his age."

    

Ago

 

     One time Yom is translated "ago."  1 Samuel 9:20 says "As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, ..." 

 

Always

 

     Four times yom is translated as "always," in Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7.  Always here can be interpreted as a lifetime...for instance, we are to keep the commandments of the Lord always (Deut. 5:29).

 

Season

 

     Three times yom is translated "season."  In Genesis 40:4, "...and they continued a season in ward."  Again, in Joshua 24:7, "dwelt in the wilderness a long season," and in 2 Chronicles 15:3, "...a long season Israel hath been...".  In each case yom represents a multi-month period.

 

Chronicles

 

     When used in conjunction with the word dâbâr, yom is translated "chronicles" (27 times).

    

Continually

 

     When used in conjunction with kôwl, yom is translated as "continually" (11 times).  Once, in Psalm 139:16, it is translated continuance (without the kôwl).

 

Ever

 

     Ever is used to represent a long period of time, such as in Deuteronomy 19:9, "to walk ever in his ways."  Nineteen times Yom is translated "ever."  The old testament uses "for ever" instead of the word forever.  In sixteen cases of use of the word ever, for is placed before it, indicating a infinite period of time.  I will not list them all (consult Strong's Concordance for a full listing) but here is an example.  In Psalm 23:6, it says "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever."  Here Yom is translated as the final word of this verse, ever.  Thus, Yom in this verse, and 16 others, represents eternity.

 

Evermore

 

    In one instance, when yom is used in conjunction with kôwl, Yom is translated "evermore."  Deuteronomy 28:29, "...and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore;" thus representing either a lifetime or eternity.

 

Word Usage in the Old Testament

 

     As you can see, Yom is used in a wide variety of situations related to the concept of time.  Yom is not just for days...it is for time in general.  How it is translated depends on the context of its use with other words.

Yom in the Creation Account

      Even within the creation account, Yom is used to represent four different time periods. 

1. Genesis 1:5  "And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate a 12-hour period
2. Genesis 1:14  "And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate 24-hour days
3. Genesis 2:4  "...in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens."  Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate the entire creative week.

     The fourth usage of Yom in the creation account is in the summary for each of the six creation days, "and there was morning and evening the first day". Yom is used to represent a finite, long period of time, usually either millions or billions of years.  To show support for this, consider the uses of Yom by Moses.

Moses Other Uses of Yom

     Moses, the author of the first five books of the Bible, and of Psalm 90, used Yom in many different ways.

1. Genesis 4:3  "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."  In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months. 
2. Genesis 43:9  "...then let me bear the blame for ever."  Here, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
3. Genesis 44:32  "...then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever."  Again, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
4. Deuteronomy 4:40  "...that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth the, for ever."  Here Yom represents a physical lifetime
5. Deuteronomy 10:10, "Now I stayed on the mountain forty days and nights, as I did the first time,..."  Here, Yom is a "time" equal to forty days.
6. Deuteronomy 18:5  "...to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for ever."  Again, Yom is translated as eternity
7. Deuteronomy 19:9  "...to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in His ways..."  Here, Yom represents a lifetime.  As long as we live we are to walk in his ways

 

     As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent 12-hours, 24 hours, the creative week, forty days, several months, a lifetime, and eternity. 

 

Common Young Earth Arguments

 

     To get around the obvious conclusion that Yom in Genesis 1 can mean millions of years, young earth theorists have come up with several arguments, none of which is supported by common Hebrew grammatical rules according to Hebrew experts (such as Dr. Walter Kaiser).  These rules were created by Hebrew language experts who are young earth creationists to begin with, thus their viewpoint is obviously biased.  They have a specific agenda they are trying to prove, and thus cannot be objective.

 

Ordinals/Cardinals

 

     Young earth creationists say that whenever Yom is used with an ordinal or cardinal number (1st, 2nd, 1,2, etc) that it always represents a 24 hour day.  However, this is not true.  In Zechariah 14:7-9, the "one day" refers to a period of time when the Lord shall be king over the earth.  In other places, some say that Isaiah and Hosea have numbers with the word day which are figurative (External Link).

     Some young earth theorists, including Jonathan Sarfati in his book Refuting Compromise, have addressed this verse in Zechariah an Hosea.  Although his argument sounds impressive, you have to recognize it for what it is...he is arguing for his young earth agenda, thus any rules that he espouses must be examined by true Hebrew scholars who are impartial.   Hebrew scholars do not recognize this fabricated rule.¹ 

     What Sarfati thinks is not important...what is important, as Dr. Walter Kaiser points out, is the intentions of the author.  We should not create rules that support our own agendas, but should strive to understand the author's intended meaning outside of rules.

 

Evening/Morning Construction

 

   In Genesis 1 Moses says "and there was evening and morning the xx day".  Does the use of evening and morning indicate a sunrise and sunset for each creative day?  First, let's look at what evening and morning are not.  They are not actual evening and mornings, as this requires a sunrise and sunset.  According to young earth theory, the Sun was not created until Day Four, thus there could be no sunrise or sunset for the first three days of creation.  However, God uses the terms evening and morning for those first three days.  Therefore, they cannot be actual evenings and mornings. 

    We are left with only one option.  The words for Evening and Morning can only represent the beginning and ending of the creative period, and not actual sunrise and sunsets.  Scripture itself sets this pattern for us.  Morning and evening are used figuratively in Psalm 30:5, Psalm 49:14,15, Psalm 90:6.  Thus, the evening and morning of creation can mean the start and end of the creative process that is attributed to that creation period.

     Young earth advocates counter that traditionally, church fathers have always held that sunrise and sunsets do not constitute a day, and they accepted the sun creation on Day Four with no hint of the first three days being anything other than 24-hour days.  For instance, Sarfati in Refuting Compromise mentions Luther and Calvin (page 84-86).  However, Luther and Calvin did not have the means of modern science at their disposal.  At the time, geocentricity was still accepted!  Don't fall into the trap of following the teachings of our church fathers.   For more, read Church Fathers.

 

Literal/Figurative Argument

 

     This argument says that you cannot use a word figuratively until after you have used it literally (see this Answers in Genesis article).  The author gives two examples, which appear to be correct and follow this rule.  However, is this rule valid?  I see no reason to suppose that it is.  You have to be careful with young earth claims about biblical interpretation methods.  Again, they will invent rules that support their cause, when there is no basis for their rule in Hebrew.

     In this case, it makes no difference which order the word Yom appears in, i.e. literal before figurative or vice versa.  Yes, these are the first words of the Bible, but they are not the first words of mankind.  All the time from Adam to Moses, men were speaking in their own languages, thus the literal interpretation via spoken language would already have been established.  There was no need to suppose a literal/figurative structure.

 

If God's Creation Was Billions of Years Old...

 

     If God's creation was billions of years old, how would He have written the creation account in Genesis?  One thing is certain...God is good at telling us exactly what we need to know.

     When God refers to a large number, He uses picture stories, such as Abraham's descendants being as numerous as the sand.  Why does He do this?  If God had said, "You will have millions of descendants," Abraham would have asked, "What is a million?"

     When considering the creation, if we broke it down into days, that would be 5,000,500,000,000 days, or roughly 13.7 billion years.  Do we need an account for each day of creation...of course not.  God in His infinite wisdom, saw fit to tell us the creation story by breaking it down into creative segments, each of which was attributed to a specific creative act or acts.  We need to give the early Hebrews of Genesis a break...they didn't have calculators like we do!

     One must also consider that time with God has no meaning.  To Him, 10 billion years is like a day.  Thus, it is no problem for God to put billions of years into one of His days.  Dr. Hugh Ross puts it best in his determination that the frame of reference for creation is the surface of the earth.  Genesis 1:2 puts the witness of creation on the surface.  But who is witnessing these events?  It is God himself.  During the first 5.99 days of creation, God is the only one present.  Thus, human time does not matter...no humans were there to witness the passage of time.   What matters is how God sees time!  Thus, a billion year day is only a passing moment in God's eyes.

     The creation account is written in such a manner for all people to understand it.  The issue is not how long creation took...the issue is that God did it, and that's all that matters in the end.

 

Conclusion

 

     With such a wide usage of the word Yom for many different time periods, it cannot be claimed that Yom in the Old Testament only represents a 24-hour period.  During the creation account alone, Yom represents four different time periods.  Rules of Hebrew, created by young earth Hebrew scholars, are invalid.  Because of their biased position, they are trying to prove their own agenda.

     Since humans did not witness creation, our own concept of a 24-hour day does not apply.  The only thing that matters is God's concept of time.  Thus, the only evidence we have to accurately assess the age of creation is the creation itself.  Since the rocks and stars say we are billions of years old, that must be the truth.  This fits perfectly with a literal interpretation of Genesis, and an inerrant Bible, and does not impact any other Biblical doctrines.

agreed.  Good post

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, da_man1974 said:

agreed.  Good post

I mean, I studied Genesis and Science and came up with a Creation account that Glorifies God. I do not believe all so called Science or scientists are believable, I do not fall for Evolution, because it is not fact based, imho, but we can readily see the Heavens, it is visible unto us. Scientists 100-150 years ago swore the universe was eternal, so the "Big Bang" gave them trouble, they understood the universe had a beginning, just like the very first verse of the Bible says, "In the Beginning".  The Big Bang PROVES God created the Universe, it doesn't disprove it. 

I have figured out, that when God said Darkness was on the Face of the Deep, the WMAP/NASA Map, proves this, there was 400 Million years of Darkness before the First Star was Created. Anyway, Check this out, Scientists have discovered God and don't even realize it. WATCH THIS.

Scientists have leaned that something can come from nothing, as long as you have the Laws of Nature/A Set of Forces, they call this Quantum Fluctuations. (This is where I learned about the WMAP/NASA Map.)

Set of Forces (Quantum Fluctuations  is the name they use) or Laws of Nature........They must meet these requirements. 

1. ) Not Physical

2. ) Acts on the Physical

3. ) Created the Physical from Nothing

4. ) Predates the Universe

Now, what have these scientists discovered, that they are TOO BLIND TO SEE ? This meets the EXACT DEFINITION of the BIBLICAL GOD !! 

AMEN....LOL

 

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by Revelation Man

[da_man1974]

One thing I found interesting in your post, is how about stars that are light years away?  The light couldn't have gotten here in the 6000 years