Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut.

It seems we have a lot of topics so I will put headings for them to help us. And you can address them bit by bit if you like & not all at once.

1. FIRST.

 

I understand what you are saying in the above, but I think you are missing the point. So let me say this another way. Now, let's take that group we are discussing, present day saints who are being killed, and rather than place them in the group that has been beheaded, let us place them in the group with the authority to judge. So now, the group that has been beheaded only consists of those from within the tribulation, correct?

 

That is a good point there, wingnut. `let`s place them in the group with the authority to judge.` Would you like to expound on that?

 

`These two groups are still resurrected together, in the first resurrection. People from before, and people during, resurrected together. The dead in Christ rise first according to scripture. I hope that helps.`

 

So here we are again (re: your discussion with S. T. Ranger) on the word `first.` The Greek word `protos` means foremost. ( in time, place, order or importance). Thus we need other scriptures to show which of these it is. And this then leads us to God`s purposes for doing such. And this topic – God`s purposes - we can discuss more fully as we go on.

2. THE DAY OF THE LORD (GOD, ALMIGHTY).

 

Marilyn, before he says that he says this, "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:" The entire chapter is dedicated to the day of the Lord, so this is speaking about the end times, and he says not to forget this one thing. Please explain how this one thing is important for us to remember?

The important thing, (re: 2 Peter 3: 8) is that time, to God is not as we measure it. To God a day is AS a thousand years. Thus to God He is not `slack concerning His promise..` (v. 9) The believers knew about The Day of the Lord (God Almighty) as it had been written in the Old Testament. Peter even says `I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder, that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets.....` (2 Peter 3: 1 & 2)

Then Peter goes on to explain about the Day of the Lord (God Almighty – Judgments) & then encourages the believers concerning their conduct so as not to be included in judgment - `be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot & blameless; & reckon that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation – as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, has written to you,...` (2 Peter 3: 14 & 15)

To understand more on this topic we would have to look at the writings of Paul.


3. MILLENNIUM & NEW HEAVENS & NEW EARTH.
 

First, notice what this passage says at the beginning, "Behold, I create..." Second, it follows this.
Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
The Lord is providing us with imagery of what eternity will be. So how does one who always was explain something never ending to people that only understand temporal things? He does this using examples from what we do understand. Those verses are not saying that we will die, it is explaining that 100 years is a blink for the eternal. The fact that you cannot overlook, is that these things follow the creation of the new heaven and earth, any way you slice it that is post-millennium.

 

How does God explain (good thought) – God just clearly says –

`And God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; & there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.` (Rev. 21: 4)

And God says to Israel in Isaiah 65: 17 that He is going to create these New Heavens & a New Earth. Then there is a BUT, meaning that before He creates these, New, He is going to make Jerusalem as a rejoicing.

`behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing....No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; for the child shall die one hundred years old. But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.` (Isa. 65: 18 & 20)

Thus we see there is death in this period of time whereas God clearly says in the New there will not be any death.



`And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, & to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.` (Zech. 14: 16 & 17)

You didn`t answer this `no rain` specifically. And while you are at it there is `the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be the punishment.....` (Zech. 14: 18 & 19)

This does not fit into the time of the New Heavens & New Earth where -

`God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; & there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.` (Rev. 21: 4)

4. MILLENNIUM & CONDITIONS.

 

No sunlight, no moonlight, no stars = no distinction between day and night.
This should shed some light on what Jesus meant when He said every eye will see Him coming. They will see Him coming because He will be the only light. This is why Zechariah says that come evening there will be light.
What you propose here is this. For one thousand years we will reside on a planet that has been destroyed, there is no sunlight, no moonlight, no starlight. There is no drinkable water, there is nothing green left; plants, trees, etc. First, without the sun nothing will grow, plants and trees will not grow without this. So there is no food or water for this thousand years, no sun, no moon, no stars, completely dark. The animal kingdom is also wiped out during the tribulation. How is it possible for anyone to survive under these conditions? These are the conditions described in Zechariah along with what we see in Revelation, correct?

 

`And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half of them towards the eastern sea & half of them towards the western sea; in both summer & winter it shall both occur.` (Zech. 14: 8)

This clearly shows that the living water flows from Jerusalem on earth & is not the `pure river of the water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God & the Lamb.` (Rev. 22: 1) The` river` in Rev. Is in the New whereas the `living waters` are from Jerusalem on earth. These waters bring healing to the land & polluted areas.

As regarding the sun & stars, we still see there are seasons so there has to be light. Also the animal kingdom is not wiped out – only those at the great supper – Armageddon in the valley of Jehoshaphat.

`Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; & he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come & gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses & those who sit on them, & the flesh of all people, free & slave, both small & great.”` (Rev. 19: 17 & 18)


5. ARMAGEDDON.

 

The battle of Armageddon features Satan leading the remaining enemies in the final battle, with the beast and false prophet already having been eliminated.

You are a bit confused here, bro, no disrespect meant. Let`s just look at what the scripture really says is at the battle of Armageddon – for the 3 of them are there.

A. The Gathering.

Here we see the Dragon (Satan), the beast (anti-Christ), & the False Prophet. They are gathering the world`s armies to Armageddon.

`Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the river Euphrates, & its water was dried up, so that the way of the Kings of the east might be prepared.
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, & out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of demons, performing signs which go out to the kings of the earth & of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great Day of God Almighty.......& they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.` (Rev. 16: 12 – 14 & 15)


B. Enroute to Armageddon.

Now we see in Rev. 9 13 – 21 this great army of 200 million, the Kings of the East who travel all the way from China etc to the Middle East, crossing the great river Euphrates which is then dried up. Enroute to Armageddon they kill one third of mankind.


C. The Battle of Armageddon.

Rev. 19 shows us who is at this great battle – the Lord & His angelic army, Satan, the anti-Christ & the false prophet, the world`s armies.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”



19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. (Rev. 19: 17 – 21)

`Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having a key to the bottomless pit & a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil & Satan, & bound him for a thousand years; & he cast him into the bottomless pit, & shut him up, & set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.` (Rev. 20: 1 – 3)

D. After the Millennium.

Then after the Millennium Satan gathers the world armies to Jerusalem for battle. However there is NO battle as God sends down fire from heaven & they are consumed.

`Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison & will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four courners of the earth, Gog & Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
They went up on the breadth of the earth & surrounded the camp of the saints & the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven & devoured them. And the devil who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire & brimstone where the beast & the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day & night for ever & ever.` (Rev.20: 7 – 10)

 

Much to consider, & I still have more of your points to answer. However I will give you an opportunity to reply to this so far.
Enjoy chatting with you, wingnut, as you are polite.

God bless, Marilyn.



 

[S.T. Ranger]

Again, I will have to withdraw from discussion with you, as a denial of the Kingdom is by far the worst position one can take. It denies the thousand year Kingdom clearly prophesied throughout Scripture and discussion between an a-millennialist and a premillennial believer is usually pointless, because we approach Scripture two different ways b

That doesn't mean, my friend, that I question your salvation, only your approach to Scripture and the conclusions you have drawn. I may be interested in looking at a few items of interest such as the first resurrection, but as far as debating an eschatological timeline and how events unfold, we simply are working with two different Bibles.

God bless.

 

First, I do not deny the Kingdom.  However, scripture gives us the strong indication that the millenium is only a day based on the verse from II Peter.

 

II Peter 3:⁸ But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

 

Can you explain why this one thing is important to remember regarding the day of the Lord?

 

Secondly, I do understand your frustration, although I do not understand how ceasing discussions benefits anyone.  We are working with the same bible, and I really think what separates us from coming together is the issue of chronology.  So I would appreciate it if you could at least respond to the scripture I offered you in regards to the dead being judged.

 

Revelation 11:¹⁶ And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, ¹⁷ saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,    the One who is and who was,because you have taken your great power    and have begun to reign.¹⁸ The nations were angry,    and your wrath has come.The time has come for judging the dead,    and for rewarding your servants the prophetsand your people who revere your name,    both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

Revelation 20:¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ¹³ The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. ¹⁴ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ¹⁵ Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

This only happens once by my understanding of scripture, do you have an explanation for this?

 

I appreciate you indulging me in this conversation, and do hope you will reconsider continuing, or at the very least a response to the above two inquiries.  As for anything you have offered in scripture, I read every word and passage you have offered.  I may not have responded to each one, but I always take what my brothers and sisters offer me in regards to scripture and examine it.  In regards to what you offered towards the argument over whether first means first, none of what you offered to me says what you expressed to me.  I do apologize for only responding to the first offering, not because I did not read all of them, but because I do not understand them in the way you are applying them.

 

God bless you.

Not sure if this will come through, as I have had several posts in the last day not go through, which I will attribute to the tablet.

In regards to the usage of protos, I'm not sure how my post doesn't make the view presented clear. I gave examples of its usage where a sequential meaning is impossible, and combined with the fact that we already know that, at the least, the Lord"s resurrection is the first in sequence of time, and that it makes little sense to have the Two Witnesses resurrected at the end ( because he is empowered for forty two months yet no man can hurt them), then we have to consider ''first'' as not meaning first in a series.

Also, we differ in regards to the thousand years which establishes that the dead do not rise at that time which again distinguishes this resurrection from the foundational teaching of one resurrection on the last day.

It is not a matter of frustration in regards to your view, it is simply acknowledging that if an antagonist will not address a point or issue and continues with same arguments, then we are spinning our wheels. This is true on several key points.

You say you don't deny the Kingdom (and I will clarify the thousand year physical Kingdom, not generally speaking, as I said, your salvation and sincerity is not questioned), then immediately say it is only a day based on correlating Peter's statement, which effectively denies the thousand years. This denies a clear statement in Revelation which is also reiterated by the fact that the first resurrection is simply not the same resurrection which follows and takes place at the Great White Throne.

And I will stop there because several responses I have done have not gone through and with the distractions on my end I don't want to either waste time hunting and pecking on this tablet or do a longer post which won't go through anyway, lol.

God bless.

[S.T. Ranger]

Wingnut, just to touch on the previous post: in regards to Revelation 11 and 20, again, we have the declaration in the former occurring within the Tribulation, and the latter occurring after the thousand year Kingdom, which makes it impossible for us to reasonably debate it because, as I said, we are viewing two different Bibles with two different timelines. The Bible you read is missing, not just the thousand year period clearly stated, but the fulfillment of the promise of God to Israel. That's not something I can change your mind about, only the Lord can do that. And the same can be said of me, just to be fair (or in other words I'm not just saying I'm right...you're wrong).

But I will say that I see no reconciliation of your view with the timeline established in Scripture. Nullifying the thousand years by correlating it to Peter's statement does not negate the rest of the relevant texts we consider when we try to be eschatologically accurate. Just do me a favor, set aside the view that Revelation is ''not chronological,'' and try an approach that we use with all other prophecy, which I am convinced negates a great deal of confusion that many debate about.

The parenthetical passages will fall into place in the timeline. We open with the seals which coincides with ministry of the Two Witnesses' they are caught up in the middle, at which point Antichrist is revealed for who he is, and then begins the forty two months in which Israel is preserved in the Wilderness. This coincides with the rise of Antichrist where there is no sacrifice and oblation, but demand of worship of the Beast.

Just give it a look. Again, I can't convince you of this, but I am confident you will see the consistency in events in this approach. It does not rely on very weak correlations, and allows us to keep events in the order they were given.

I enjoy debating with a-millennials, don't get me wrong, but I have to insist some basics are first addressed, particularly when the Rapture is in view. The resurrection which takes place at the Great White Throne truly fulfills the foundational teaching found in the Old Testament Scriptures, but if one cannot see the distinction between the two resurrections in CH.20, then we cannot draw conclusions where discussion is profitable. Until that is addressed, discussion beyond that becomes meaningless.

One last example of the use of protos would be in Hebrews, where the writer designates the Covenant of Law as the First Covenant, where we know this is not the first covenant, not even when we make this Epistle exclusive to Israel (Paul makes this clear in Galatians 3). Just as in Revelation 20, what is exclusive is...the contrast. In type only two are in view, and only one is acceptable (Law/New; unto life/unto death).

Sequence is not in view in either.

And with that I pray your studies will be blessed of God and will say I have enjoyed the discussion.

God bless.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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Since I have corrected you numerous times for "Quote Mining" Scripture and have shown you in excruciating detail (4 times now) the where and the what..... but you refuse to not only acknowledge it but continue to employ the same "style"; I must end the discussion.

 

Hope you find the Truth.

 

Regards 

[Salty]

 

 

 

 

Absolutely, this is why His reign in this day is done with an iron scepter.  He is going to knock the stuffing out of them so to speak.  The key is to remember that one thing Peter pleads with us not to forget.  A day= a thousand years.  God bless you.

 

 

 

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The key is to remember that one thing Peter pleads with us not to forget.  A day= a thousand years.

 

 

Yet again, another "Quote Mine" and woefully contrived connection.

 

(2 Peter 3:8) "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

 

This is a Simile (Figure of Speech/ Rhetorical Device):  "as a" "as".  As explained before:  This is speaking to the Timelessness of GOD.  A Thousand Years doesn't = a Literal "DAY" or vice versa.

 

Similar to this verse....

 

(Psalms 90:4) "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."

 

 

When I got my degree in eschatology

 

 

Did they happen to touch on the use of Rhetorical Devices in Scripture?  Or is that Post Doctoral content? 

 

 

 

Again, what does Peter say?

II Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Peter is discussing the day of the Lord in this entire chapter, so any attempt to say this does not apply to the end times is futile.  And what is that one thing we are not to forget?  A day= a thousand years.  The millenium is a day, the day of the Lord.

 

 

(2 Peter 3:8-11) "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 

 

{9} The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.  {10} But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.  {11} Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,"

 

This is an admonishment; that just because a LONG TIME PERIOD has come and gone doesn't Preclude the fact that The LORD will COME and fulfill all promises.  

 

Moreover, when do these events occur...."the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" ??  

 

In the Millennium??      How can Christ Reign on the Earth and the Earth be "Burned Up" @ the same time?

 

How can satan be: chained and cast into the "bottomless pit" for a thousand years, then loosed, deceive the nations "Gog and Magog" which are in the Four Quarters of The Earth---to gather them to battle on the breadth of The Earth and encompass the beloved city, then have fire COME DOWN from heaven and devour them......WHEN:

 

The Earth has already been "Burned Up" ??

 

 

 

 

And, Please Clarify....are you saying The Millennium lasts for ONE Day?

 

 

Are You saying the Day of The LORD is the Millennium ??

 

(Jeremiah 46:10) "For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates."

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

Is Isaiah speaking of the Millennium here?  So in the Millennium, Christ goes to Bozrah and "Treads The Winepress"? Who are the people the LORD is Treading and Trampling in HIS fury here...in the Millennium? 

 

 

(Revelation 1:10) "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

 

Is this Saturday? Sunday?  or, the Day of the LORD.  Can the "day of the LORD" carry a dual meaning as in a Time Period and a Specific Day @ the same time?

 

Is John, on the day of the LORD, speaking to the Millennium here in Chapter 1 of the Book of Revelation?

 

 

Maybe this will help.  There are TWO "Contexts" that Must Be satisfied with each and every Scripture Passage:

 

1.  Local : within the Passage itself.

 

2.  The Whole Counsel of GOD.  <------ this is by far the most Important.  If it doesn't "Align" here, then it's Hogwash!

 

 

Ya see, if you're telling us a story about Humpty Dumpty and during points in spinning your yarn you state that there are No Kings (Anarchy) and No Domesticated Horses...then that IPSO FACTO brings the very existence of Humpty Dumpty into question.

 

In other Words, The Veracity of any story or 'theory" MUST display Logical Consistency based on it's Inherent Tenets.  If not, it's Baloney!! (Industry Phrase)

 

Hope that helps

 

 

 

regards 

 

 

Further descriptions 'in context' per Peter in the 2 Peter 3 chapter reveals the idea of the earth being burned up does not mean a total destruction of the earth itself, but a cleansing of the earth's surface like God destroyed the old world with a flood. That's the actual context there in 2 Pet.3 which requires we include an understanding of what Peter said about "the world that then was" in the first part of that chapter, which aligns with God's promise in Genesis that He would not destroy the earth again by water.

 

The Day of The Lord includes both the events that end this present world by God's vengeance, and the events of Christ's Millennium reign. This should be easy to establish, since the new heavens and a new earth timing does not occur until after Christ's thousand years reign and God's final Great White Throne Judgment.

[Marilyn C]

Further descriptions 'in context' per Peter in the 2 Peter 3 chapter reveals the idea of the earth being burned up does not mean a total destruction of the earth itself, but a cleansing of the earth's surface like God destroyed the old world with a flood. That's the actual context there in 2 Pet.3 which requires we include an understanding of what Peter said about "the world that then was" in the first part of that chapter, which aligns with God's promise in Genesis that He would not destroy the earth again by water.

 

The Day of The Lord includes both the events that end this present world by God's vengeance, and the events of Christ's Millennium reign. This should be easy to establish, since the new heavens and a new earth timing does not occur until after Christ's thousand years reign and God's final Great White Throne Judgment.

Hi Salty,

 

I think if you look at this scripture it clearly shows that the old earth & heavens are done away with.

 

`And I saw a great white throne, & Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth & the heaven fled away; & there was found no place for them.` (Rev. 20: 11)

 

Marilyn.

[Salty]

You can argue with Him about that...

 

Psalms 78

69 And He built His sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which He hath established for ever.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

Hey bro, no argument with God here. I see that the word `established,` is `yacad,` meaning to set, appoint..... Thus God does away with the first, damaged earth & creates a new one because He has `appointed `it to be forever. God did not say that He would leave it in its damaged state & creating it new, just confirms what God has said - `established, appointed forever. 

 

Marilyn.

[wingnut-]

Hi wingnut.

It seems we have a lot of topics so I will put headings for them to help us. And you can address them bit by bit if you like & not all at once.

 

 

Hello again dear sister,

 

I see that you sorted out the quote function, and it would appear you are better at it than me   Perhaps you can shoot me another e-mail telling me how to get the time and date stamp on there   I am enjoying chatting with you also, as well as the others I am chatting with, and I appreciate and value everyone's input.  We may not resolve anything, but I believe that any circumstance scripture is being discussed is profitable.  I am sure we all agree on that.    As always, I will start at the top and work my way down.

 

1. FIRST.

I understand what you are saying in the above, but I think you are missing the point. So let me say this another way. Now, let's take that group we are discussing, present day saints who are being killed, and rather than place them in the group that has been beheaded, let us place them in the group with the authority to judge. So now, the group that has been beheaded only consists of those from within the tribulation, correct?

 

That is a good point there, wingnut. `let`s place them in the group with the authority to judge.` Would you like to expound on that?

 

 

Revelation 20:⁴ I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. ⁵ (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. ⁶ Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

There are two groups of people John places in the first resurrection, those who had been given authority to judge, and those who had been beheaded.

 

If we look at those who had been beheaded as strictly coming from the great tribulation, we have accounted for this group.  According to scripture, those with the authority to judge represents the church.  So, present day saints who are being killed, and anyone who has passed on of natural causes account for this group.  The point is, they are resurrected together.  Both groups receive their glorified bodies here, at the first resurrection.  They come to life and reign with Christ for the thousand years.

 

The book of Revelation deals with a very specific time, the end times.  John had already written the gospel according to him, and three more books, in which he clearly establishes that Jesus was resurrected.  He even touches on that again in the beginning of Revelation, there is no question this is an established fact with him.  To understand Revelation, one must have an understanding of scripture as a whole.  Which is to say, John is not repeating a lesson here, he is not dealing with the past, he is addressing this specific time in the future.

 

Now, if a person were to be in a plane crash that left them suffering from amnesia, so that they were basically working with a clean slate.  Say this person washed up on some vacant island, and the only thing they find on the beach is a bible.  I believe that person can come to a complete understanding of scripture with the Holy Spirit as their guide.  They don't need to know Greek or Syrian Aramaic to understand it, God's Word speaks for itself.  So the argument concerning words from the original text rings hollow to me.  What it does in essence, is tell people that if they are not fluent in the original language these texts were written, they cannot understand the bible.  I respectfully reject this line of thinking on that basis.

 

That being said, I am aware of protos and what it means.  I think however, what you are overlooking is the fact that protos means foremost, in time, place, and order of importance.  Revelation is dealing with a specific time.

 

2. THE DAY OF THE LORD (GOD, ALMIGHTY).

 

The important thing, (re: 2 Peter 3: 8) is that time, to God is not as we measure it. To God a day is AS a thousand years. Thus to God He is not `slack concerning His promise..` (v. 9) The believers knew about The Day of the Lord (God Almighty) as it had been written in the Old Testament. Peter even says `I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder, that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets.....` (2 Peter 3: 1 & 2)

 

 

Well, the problem with that answer is this.  I already know that time for us is not the same as time with God.  Peter is saying this in direct reference to the day of the Lord, so why is this important to remember regarding this specific time?

 

The other problem is this.  The Old Testament prophets for the most part refer to this as a day, scripturally speaking there are far more references to this being a day than there are to it being a thousand years.

 

3. MILLENNIUM & NEW HEAVENS & NEW EARTH.

 

How does God explain (good thought) – God just clearly says –

`And God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; & there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.` (Rev. 21: 4)

 

 

Yes, and He does say all of the above in the passage from Isaiah 65:17-19.  Isaiah is chronological, everything that follows this passage is talking about eternity.

 

And God says to Israel in Isaiah 65: 17 that He is going to create these New Heavens & a New Earth. Then there is a BUT, meaning that before He creates these, New, He is going to make Jerusalem as a rejoicing.

`behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing....No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; for the child shall die one hundred years old. But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.` (Isa. 65: 18 & 20)

 

 

Isaiah 65:¹⁸ But be glad and rejoice forever

    in what I will create,

for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight

    and its people a joy.

 

The but is speaking to our attitude towards what He will create, and He follows that by saying "I will create Jerusalem."  Present day Jerusalem already exists, He is speaking of the New Jerusalem, the place He went to prepare for us.  The passages that follow this are the imagery, we will not die, He is saying that 100 years is nothing to those who enter into what He has prepared.  He then expresses how awful that will be for those who will not enter, those who do not belong to Him.  Verse 18 says, but be glad and rejoice forever, forever is eternal, no death.  Everything in this passage of Isaiah aligns with everything from the passage you posted from Revelation.

 

`And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, & to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.` (Zech. 14: 16 & 17)

You didn`t answer this `no rain` specifically. And while you are at it there is `the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be the punishment.....` (Zech. 14: 18 & 19)

 

 

Zechariah chapter 14 is probably the most highly debated chapter in the entire bible.  I remember when I attended Liberty that the different professors we studied under did not see eye to eye on this at all.  The reason I remember that is because several of them got into a highly contested debate on the matter lol.  At any rate, some see this as a result of nuclear fallout, based on things like people rotting on their feet, a day without light or cold, the mountain splitting in two.  At that time, this struck me as a plausible explanation.

 

Now I see this more from the opposing perspective, and I believe that the majority of what Zechariah describes are symbolic references.  The reason I see this as symbolic is quite simple, first, because this chapter is full of symbolism, and second, following Jesus these types of sacrifices were useless.  So to start, we look to Numbers 29 to get a bearing on what this is.

 

It really begins on the first day of the seventh month with the feast of trumpets.  The offerings for all of these events were to be made by fire, and this speaks to the judgement which is taking place in the end times, when the earth is cleansed by fire.

On the tenth day of the seventh month was the day of atonement.

 

On the fifteenth day of the seventh month was the Feast of Tabernacles, this festival was originally said to be 7 days, this according to the Lord from Numbers 29:12.  Starting with the first day, the only difference in the offering from day to day was that each day one less bull was offered than the previous.  But when we get to the conclusion of the seventh day, we find there is an eighth day, which is a bit odd.  The offering is also different, only one bull, one ram, and 7 male lambs.

 

As I said, I see no circumstance under which these meaningless sacrifices would be re-instituted by Jesus, who was the spotless sacrifice made for all.  To me, this is a symbolic reference that points to the judgement of the dead, who will be judged by the manner in which they lived their lives as illustrated in Matthew 25.

 

So to me, this is how I understand it.  Feast of trumpets is symbolic of the sounding of the 7th trumpet which marks His coming, the Day of Atonement would be symbolic of the Day of the Lord (or millenium if you prefer), and the Feast of Tabernacles is symbolic of the judgement of the dead, which will take place following the 7th day.  This could account for the extra day we see at the end of the Feast of Tabernacles.  As I have openly admitted prior to this, I do not have my complete puzzle, there are still pieces I am looking for.  They are in His Word somewhere though, of that I am certain.  That is precisely why I see discussing these things as important, regardless of the viewpoint, because others offer me scripture that often include a piece I am looking for.

 

So to answer your question, I have not yet discovered what the rain symbolizes.  As for the plague which strikes those who do not come up for this event, I believe that speaks to eternal punishment based on the description in Zechariah 14:12.  It is also important to keep this in mind, the priests and the temple were separate and more holy than the rest of Israel.  In Exodus 28:36 Holy to the Lord was inscribed on the priests turbans to symbolize this.  Zechariah prophesied that in the end, this would be inscribed on horses, as well as ordinary pottery, making items like this as sacred as the holy sacramental vessels.  Which is basically saying, everything will be sacred.  This points directly at the New Jerusalem.

 

4. MILLENNIUM & CONDITIONS.

 

`And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half of them towards the eastern sea & half of them towards the western sea; in both summer & winter it shall both occur.` (Zech. 14: 8)

This clearly shows that the living water flows from Jerusalem on earth & is not the `pure river of the water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God & the Lamb.` (Rev. 22: 1) The` river` in Rev. Is in the New whereas the `living waters` are from Jerusalem on earth. These waters bring healing to the land & polluted areas.

 

 

Living water and water of life mean the exact same thing, the order of the words do not change the meaning.  To me the two cannot be separated, they speak to the New Jerusalem.  Rev. 22 also states that the river of life flows from the throne of God and of the Lamb, down the middle of the great street of the city, which is the same thing Zechariah is describing, dividing east and west.

 

As regarding the sun & stars, we still see there are seasons so there has to be light. Also the animal kingdom is not wiped out – only those at the great supper – Armageddon in the valley of Jehoshaphat.

 

 

In Revelation 6:12-13 we see the sun turns black, the moon turns blood red, and the stars fall to the earth.  At no point are we told that they are restored, and Zechariah confirms this exact same condition, referring to it as frosty darkness, with no distinction between day and night.  The only light from that point on will be from the Lord Himself, and this carries over with the New Jerusalem.

 

Revelation 22:⁵ There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

 

As for the animal kingdom, I worded my original statement poorly.  I can see why you would take that to mean completely gone, which is not at all what I intended, and I do apologize.  What I should have said is that the animal kingdom will be greatly depleted.  The main problem for animals will be finding water, for food they can simply eat people.  This of course will be more difficult for smaller animals, but larger beasts will not find getting food so difficult, water will be the animals main issue with survival.

 

5. ARMAGEDDON.

 

You are a bit confused here, bro, no disrespect meant. Let`s just look at what the scripture really says is at the battle of Armageddon – for the 3 of them are there.

 

`Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the river Euphrates, & its water was dried up, so that the way of the Kings of the east might be prepared.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, & out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of demons, performing signs which go out to the kings of the earth & of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great Day of God Almighty.......& they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.` (Rev. 16: 12 – 14 & 15)

 

 

No disrespect taken, however I think you overlooked the passage regarding the battle in detail.  As shown in the scripture you posted above, all three are accounted for when they begin gathering their army.  This was how I began my illustration of these events, the drying up of the river makes the way for them.  Following that, I showed the passages from Rev. 9:13-21 and compared the participants to the battle depicted in Rev. 19:11-21.

 

Revelation 19:¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. ²⁰ But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ²¹ The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

 

Note the underlined parts above, and if you read this battle in its entirety, you see no mention of the dragon.  That is because the dragon was seized and bound, locked into the Abyss until the final battle at Armageddon, this most likely occurs just as the first battle is about to begin.  The beast and the false prophet go into the lake of fire following the first battle.  This was on their way to Armageddon, somewhere in the vicinity of the Euphrates river which was dried up for them to cross.  The Euphrates is over 300 miles to the northeast of Jerusalem, while Megiddo is roughly 60 miles to the north, and a few clicks to the west of Jerusalem.

 

The battle of Armageddon has Satan leading the remaining enemies of God, no beast, no false prophet.  They have already been disposed of.

 

There is something else notable about the imagery throughout scripture when it comes to these battles in the end.  We call them battles, but really they are not going to be much of a battle, not the way we think of battles.  We see Jesus described as using the sword from His mouth, or fire from His mouth.  The sword of course is a reference to the Word of God (also the bible), and the fact that everything comes from His mouth indicates to me that He will simply speak scripture at them and they will be toast.

 

Remember what Jesus said before He was crucified, they could not take His life, He gave it freely.  If He hadn't been willing to give His life, He could have called on legions of angels.  The enemy cannot touch Him, no one can touch Him.  He is our rock, our refuge in times of trouble, our stronghold.  Therein lays the problem with the literal one thousand years.

 

For starters, Isaiah says that this will happen quickly.  Considering that destroying the enemy is as easy as speaking for Him, this makes perfect sense.  Then we have what you are proposing from Zechariah.  If Jesus has a kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as His city for a thousand years, how does an enemy that cannot stand against Him;  invade His city, plunder His city, take half of His people out of the city, not to mention the other terrible atrocities Zechariah speaks of?  If this were even remotely possible, then what happened to our rock, our refuge, and our stronghold?  This is one of the many reasons I no longer believe the thousand years is literal.  Not to mention Jesus also says, His kingdom is not of this earth.

 

Also, in the above segment you referred to as B) enroute;  you stated that the events in Revelation 9:13-21 are caused by this army marching on Jerusalem.  That is not the case at all, the passage states that the four angels kill a third of mankind.  Then it discusses the mounted troops of two hundred million, describes them and the three plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur that they produce, and also states that these plagues kill a third of mankind.  This is not the enemies army, they are the ones being killed, the mounted troops are the good guys.

 

Just a few things for your consideration, I look forward to your reply, God bless you.

[S.T. Ranger]

Testing...trying to get a post through.

Edited December 31, 2014 by S.T. Ranger