Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Ezra]

36 minutes ago, Salty said:

Again, you have debunked NOTHING.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory began with the Edward Irving movement in the 1830's and Margaret McDonald having hallucenations on her death bed with the preachers around her bed taking what she said running afoul with it to deceive many Christian brethren. That is where John Nelson Darby got the doctrine from, and he became the main leader in the 1830's movement associated with a group called 'The Brethren'.

Then some in the U.S. like Cyrus Scofield got ahold of the idea and got New York big money to support publishing of his Scofield Reference Bible which pushed the doctrine upon an unsuspecting Christian populace.

More ugly propaganda which has been regurgitated over and over again as ad hominem attacks against genuine Christians. All this belongs in the trash can. Let's stick with the Scriptures.  

Unless anyone can prove FROM SCRIPTURE that the Tribulation is necessary for the Rapture, everything else is simply hot air.

[Salty]

2 minutes ago, Ezra said:

More ugly propaganda which has been regurgitated over and over again as ad hominem attacks against genuine Christians. All this belongs in the trash can. Let's stick with the Scriptures.  

Unless anyone can prove FROM SCRIPTURE that the Tribulation is necessary for the Rapture, everything else is simply hot air.

The facts of where the Pre-trib began among some Christian Churches is not hearsay nor propaganda. It's called history.

What is such silliness, like prove the trib is needed to have a rapture, or anything else is hot air? The statement should actually be:

... prove the rapture is prior to the tribulation per God's Word, or all else is hot air. No one here has done so yet, and won't, because no such idea of a rapture prior to the tribulation is written in God's Word. It's a man-made tradition.

[Revelation Man]

56 minutes ago, Salty said:

Again, you have debunked NOTHING.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory began with the Edward Irving movement in the 1830's and Margaret McDonald having hallucenations on her death bed with the preachers around her bed taking what she said running afoul with it to deceive many Christian brethren. That is where John Nelson Darby got the doctrine from, and he became the main leader in the 1830's movement associated with a group called 'The Brethren'.

Then some in the U.S. like Cyrus Scofield got ahold of the idea and got New York big money to support publishing of his Scofield Reference Bible which pushed the doctrine upon an unsuspecting Christian populace. Scofield was a charlatan, a member of the Club of New York, an association of rich bankers and lawyers in New York city. He had previously stolen money from one of his relatives which got him into trouble with the law, and he claimed to have a Doctorate which he did not have.

For over 1800 years, the Christian Church historically held to a Post-tribulation coming of Jesus and gathering to Him.

There is NO direct statement in God's Word that declares Jesus coming prior to the great tribulation.

There IS ... direct statements in the New Testament that shows Jesus comes only one time, AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints, and that's in Jesus' Own Words.

 

I am not even reading this again, it is utterly nonsensical man. The Rapture is from Paul, just like there is no Jesus in the New Testament if you read the Greek it is Iisous....so by the same token you can say Jesus isn't in the New Testament either. 

1 Corinthians 15 tells us all about the Rapture, all you have to do is read it.

[Salty]

2 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I am not even reading this again, it is utterly nonsensical man. The Rapture is from Paul, just like there is no Jesus in the New Testament if you read the Greek it is Iisous....so by the same token you can say Jesus isn't in the New Testament either. 

1 Corinthians 15 tells us all about the Rapture, all you have to do is read it.

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD, THE ALMIGHTY.

JESUS CHRIST IS THE 'I AM'

The name Jesus is only a translation from Greek Iesous, which comes from the Hebrew Yehowshuah, which means 'Yah is Salvation'! So you cannot separate JESUS CHRIST apart from The FATHER.

[Salty]

4 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I am not even reading this again, it is utterly nonsensical man. The Rapture is from Paul, just like there is no Jesus in the New Testament if you read the Greek it is Iisous....so by the same token you can say Jesus isn't in the New Testament either. 

1 Corinthians 15 tells us all about the Rapture, all you have to do is read it.

1 Corinthians 15 is indeed linked to the events of 1 Thess.4, as BOTH Scriptures speaking of the RESURRECTION ON THE LAST DAY OF THIS WORLD.

Per 1 Thess.4:

1. The "asleep" saints are RESURRECTED FIRST, and Jesus brings them with Him as He DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN

2. The saints still alive on earth are 'changed' at the 'twinkling of an eye' to the "spiritual body", and are then gathered with the "asleep" saints and Jesus COMING FROM HEAVEN.

3. Then all go to JERUSALEM ON EARTH to reign over the nations for 1,000 years.

 

What your Pre-trib Rapture doctors forgot to tell you is that the resurrection of the 'alseep' saints can ONLY OCCUR on the FINAL DAY OF THIS WORLD WHEN THE RESURRECTION IS SET TO HAPPEN (John 6:39-54; John 11:24; John 5:28-29). That means NO RAPTURE UNTIL THE DAY OF THE RESURRECTION (a simple Biblical fact and Biblical doctrine).

 

[Revelation Man]

14 minutes ago, Salty said:

The facts of where the Pre-trib began among some Christian Churches is not hearsay nor propaganda. It's called history.

What is such silliness, like prove the trib is needed to have a rapture, or anything else is hot air? The statement should actually be:

... prove the rapture is prior to the tribulation per God's Word, or all else is hot air. No one here has done so yet, and won't, because no such idea of a rapture prior to the tribulation is written in God's Word. It's a man-made tradition.

They do not even understand the "ALL ISRAEL" will be saved scriptures. They think it means all the Church will be saved, but in the end it means that ALL Israel will be saved after the Gentiles time is fulfilled.

All Israel being Saved doesn't mean all people of Israel will be saved, it means Israel as a Nation turns back to God. There are now Messianic Jews, always have been some here an there, most who live in Israel and turn to Chris Jesus are castigated by their families, they are despised and hated. Jews do not hate Christians per se, they hate other Jews who become Christians. This is what Paul meant by "All Israel" will be saved. He is speaking about that day that the nation of Israel is turned back unto God. Just as Daniels 70th Week Decree prophesies will happen, just as Zechariah 12:10 prophesies will happen, just as Paul promises will happen, just as many prophets prophesied will happen. 

No Law can justify any man/men anywhere. The very reason Israel was considered unjust is because they turned to false gods and didn't keep the Law, which no one can. Israel then refused to accept the Lamb of God, the express image of God, one Jesus Christ, their promised Salvation or coming "SEED". Yeshua (Jesus) means Salvation. So when Paul says all Israel will be saved he is in NO WAY saying that everyone in the "Church" is going to be saved. He is saying Israel as a nation is going to one day turn back unto God, just as Malachi 4:5-6 promises, and in the very passage in which he speaks about this. 

Romans 11 starts off with Paul asking the question has Israel been lost, Paul says God forbid, God has kept 7000 men ( I think this represents the fullness of Israel repenting at some point, not 7000 men) who have not bowed the knee to Baal. He then says there is a Remnant according to grace, and that it can never be of works, if so it could not be Grace. Then Paul says God has given Israel the spirit of slumber even unto this Day.....Now 2000 years later even unto this day also. Paul then tells them why Israel was cast aside, it answers everything we need to understand the whereto/wherefore and all the WHYS !!

KEY BELOW.............That solves the question 

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Israel and the Gentiles are Two different entities by Paul's own Words)

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So what does this passage mean/imply ? That Israel (branches) was broken off because of their UNBELIEF and will be Grafted back in when they BELIEVE AGAIN !! BOOM. So when does Israel believe again ? When the Fullness of the Gentiles is come in, PLAIN AS DAY !! And then what happens ? All Israel, or Israel as a Nation repents as a Nation and turns back unto God/Messiah, just as Zechariah 12:10 prophesies. 

It is true, all of us are Gods children, in Christ Jesus, BUT for anyone to say that Paul when he said that there is neither Jew nor Greek was referring to the nation of Israel as having no place in future prophecy and is only the "Church" is people ignoring Paul's very words right here in this very passage. He says WHEN THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN ! This shows there will be TWO ENTITIES !! All Israel will be Saved, when the Time of the Gentiles is come in.

So Israel is a separate entity from the Gentile nations. We as individuals are all the same, children of Faith/Belief on/in a God who justifies us BY FAITH, but Israel and the Gentile Nations have separate callings, Israel brought forth the Messiah, the Gentile Nations brought forth the Gospel of the Messiah to the World, the Church will be Raptured to Heaven when the Gentiles time has been Fulfilled, then all Israel will be Saved, as a NATION, not all Jews will be saved, that can only happen via Jesus Christs blood. But a large majority of Israel will turn to God, and Israel as a Nation turns back to God. Not ALL ISRAEL Turned from God, there were still Godly men and prophets like Daniel who kept Gods commandments and they were Holy men before God, but ALL ISRAEL turned from God, as a NATION..........And likewise all Israel will turn back unto God in like manner. 

Thus ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.........When they believe in God again as a Nation. This proves the Gentiles and Israel are separate entities, and is the number one Mistake all post-tribbers make. When the Fullness of the Gentiles is come, they/we will be Raptured (I hope people don't think we will just lose our power of prayer and Israel will take over, THAT'S SILLY). and then All Osrael will come to God as a Nation. 

 

[Revelation Man]

35 minutes ago, Salty said:

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD, THE ALMIGHTY.

JESUS CHRIST IS THE 'I AM'

The name Jesus is only a translation from Greek Iesous, which comes from the Hebrew Yehowshuah, which means 'Yah is Salvation'! So you cannot separate JESUS CHRIST apart from The FATHER.

And Rapture comes from Harpazo............

[ENOCH2010]

Proof in the Bible about a pre-trib rapture ___NO____

Proof in the Bible about a post-trib rapture ___YES ____

It really is that simple !!!!

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Salty said:

What your Pre-trib Rapture doctors forgot to tell you is that the resurrection of the 'alseep' saints can ONLY OCCUR on the FINAL DAY OF THIS WORLD WHEN THE RESURRECTION IS SET TO HAPPEN (John 6:39-54; John 11:24; John 5:28-29).

It has been a common misunderstanding that everyone (saved and unsaved) is raised on the same day.  A study of Revelation 20 reveals that that is is a mistake. Everything said in the Gospel of John must be reconciled with the rest of Scripture. In Scripture "day" can mean a 24-hour day or a period of many days ("the Day of the Lord"), or even years.

Actually, that "last day" stretches over at least 1,000 years. Compare Revelation 20:4 and 20:5, which is connected to Rev 20:11.  The resurrection of the Tribulation saints is separated from that of the unsaved dead by 1,000 years, and the resurrection of the Church was even before that (Rev 7). 

[ENOCH2010]

Ezra you were right with everything you said except "and the resurrection of the church was even before that". You know as well as most here there is no proof of a pre-trib rapture in the Bible.