Do you view life through the "either/or" or the "both/and" lens?

[GoldenEagle]

57 minutes ago, Yowm said:

We don't know it all, but if what we know is according to God's Word then we should not change...because God's Word does not change.

The attack lately has been in the are of epistemology, how do you know what you know is the truth. This  is an age old tactic of the enemy..."Hath God said?" And is carried on by liberal and emergent church types.

We live in a time where everything is relative, lacking absolutes, right and wrong, all should be tolerance otherwise you are 'narrow minded'.. To be dogmatic today in liberal Christian circles is to be considered bigoted, narrow minded and unloving.

The Church is losing her spine. (end of rant)

I had to look that up...

Epistemology: Epistemology is a word first used by the Scottish philosopher James Frederick Ferrier to describe the branch of philosophy concerned with the theory of knowledge. It examines the nature of knowledge and how one can acquire it.

Can you give examples of what you're talking about being dogmatic about what you might be dogmatic about?

God bless,
GE

[FresnoJoe]

7 hours ago, GoldenEagle said:

Sometimes people believe in the either/or.

Examples: I'm either right or I'm wrong. You are either right or wrong. If I'm right you must be wrong. If I'm wrong you must be right. It is either black or white. It is either believing in baptism by water or infant baptism. I can either be friends or enemies with a person. People are either speaking the truth or speaking lies.

 

Others believe that many things are both/and.

Examples: I can have one perspective and you can have another. We can both disagree and still have fellowship by the bond of Christ that unites us. I might be right and you might be right. We both might be wrong so we should study the topic or passage further.

 

Do you view life through the either/or lens or the both/and lens? 

God bless,
GE

either/or

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

both/and

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

And There Is No Question About THE TRUTH

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Whither Or Not I Will

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:169

Agree

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:3-4

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. Psalms 119:160 (New International Version)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

[GoldenEagle]

43 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Scriptures as God's infallible Word.

Virgin Birth,

Deity of Christ,

Bodily Resurrection of Christ from the dead.

The visible return of Christ.

The Gospel given to the Apostles (1Cor 15:1-4) (Gal 1:9)

I would agree with you there for the most part. What do you mean by the Gospel as given to the apostles? I believe it was @FresnoJoe who first posted this a while back.

There are five fundamentals of the faith which are essential for Christianity, and upon which we agree:

1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9).
2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27).
3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 9:12-14).
4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 15:14-15).
5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20).

I probably would agree that these are either/or views most Christians have to take.  

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

48 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Bible truth is generally either/or, so that's how it should be. For example we are either saved by grace through faith or we are saved by works or some other combination. People can't expect to sit on the fence and be consistent Christians. As Christ said to the Laodiceans, be either hot or cold.

Is it though? Yes we are either saved by grace through faith or saved by some other form.

For example, I believe in the Five Solas:

Faith alone (Sola Fide)

Justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone.

Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura)

The inerrant Scripture (the Bible) is the sole source of written divine revelation, which alone can bind the conscience.

Christ alone (Solus Christus)

Our salvation is accomplished by the mediatorial work of the historical Christ alone.

Grace alone (Sola Gratia)

In salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone.

Glory to God alone (Soli Deo Gloria)

It is affirmed that because salvation is of God and has been accomplished by God, it is for God's glory and that we must glorify him always.

 

Like with @Yowm's post above I believe those are essentials or non-negotiable to the faith.

There are other issues which are non-essentials though. These can include stances on modesty, clothing, rapture and end times, control, boundaries, roles in marriage, leadership roles, predestination vs free will, prayer languages, just to name a few. These we don't have to agree upon and still have fellowship right?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

3 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Today's 'epistemology': Best illustrated by Bill Clinton with his response to the Grand Jury...

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

Lol that's very non-specific. How about some personal beliefs or examples?  

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

@Dok gave a really good visual formula too here of how we respond to people. I think it's worth adding to this thread:

 

( WDo / mT ) + mE ---> mR

 

where

WDo = The words and deeds of others

mT = my thoughts about them

mE = my Experience (addition I made) 

mR = my Response

 

So the words and deeds of others divided by my thoughts about them plus my experience results in my response.

God bless,
GE

[Ezra]

6 hours ago, GoldenEagle said:

There are other issues which are non-essentials though.

GE,

There has been a common misunderstanding among Christians (at least in North America) that there are some "essentials" and some "non-essentials".  But that is not really what is revealed in the Bible. "The faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) includes all Christian truth, or more accurately all Bible truth (2 Tim 3:16,17).  

In some areas such as dietary restrictions (or none) and observance of holy days (or none) there is Christian liberty.  And that is only because there would be Jewish brethren who would continue to practice what they were taught under the Old Covenant.  Other than that, we cannot talk about essentials and non-essentials.

For example some people wonder whether believing in the creation account as recorded is an "essential".  Well as a matter of fact it is (Rom 5:12, and in fact the whole chapter): Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If Adam was not a real historical person, then this would not be true, which means the Gospel would be false.

[hmbld]

5 hours ago, Butero said:

 while you come casual and walk into sanctuary "6" where the law is never mentioned and you are free to do as you please. 

I think you are mistaken, at least about some of us who believe we must be led by the Holy Spirit rather than a set of strict laws, on your assessment that we "are free to do as you please".  Rather, I think following a set of strict laws is closer to doing as you please.  Trying to meet some unattainable goal, and maybe not judging, but certainly making others feel judged that they can't get all these rules sorted out right.  

[enoob57]

9 hours ago, Ezra said:

GE,

There has been a common misunderstanding among Christians (at least in North America) that there are some "essentials" and some "non-essentials".  But that is not really what is revealed in the Bible. "The faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) includes all Christian truth, or more accurately all Bible truth (2 Tim 3:16,17).  

In some areas such as dietary restrictions (or none) and observance of holy days (or none) there is Christian liberty.  And that is only because there would be Jewish brethren who would continue to practice what they were taught under the Old Covenant.  Other than that, we cannot talk about essentials and non-essentials.

For example some people wonder whether believing in the creation account as recorded is an "essential".  Well as a matter of fact it is (Rom 5:12, and in fact the whole chapter): Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If Adam was not a real historical person, then this would not be true, which means the Gospel would be false.

I am building off what Ezra has already stated:
The issue at hand is black or white and no grey... as satan uses subtlety so the slide from light to darkness! It is a matter of perception based on the internals of the person but the overall is in the spiritual best seen in The Lord's desire of us
Revelation 3:15 (KJV)
[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
James 3:12 (KJV)
[12] Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Matthew 6:23-24 (KJV)
[23] But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
as these verses indicate either or... in The Lord there is no darkness at all! Why then would the children of light be settled with grey?
Love, Steven 

[Guest Butero]

1 hour ago, hmbld said:

I think you are mistaken, at least about some of us who believe we must be led by the Holy Spirit rather than a set of strict laws, on your assessment that we "are free to do as you please".  Rather, I think following a set of strict laws is closer to doing as you please.  Trying to meet some unattainable goal, and maybe not judging, but certainly making others feel judged that they can't get all these rules sorted out right.  

Perhaps they are both doing as you please in a way.  Those who want complete freedom to do things according to the conscience want to do as they please without others making them feel bad, and the other side wants the freedom to live under a strict set of guidelines.  People want what they want, and no amount of outside interference will cause them to change.  You can't keep beating someone over the head attacking legalism and make them no longer desire to be legalistic, anymore than a legalistic person can continually preach legalism and get those who don't like legalism to suddenly embrace it.