The Pagan Origins Myth About Christmas

[C_Beth]

19 minutes ago, Willa said:

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Christmas is about giving as an expression of love.  

Amen!

[Guest shiloh357]

56 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

I'm not taking any side here. I just want to say that everything has changed since I was a kid.  Growing up I never heard of anyone making Christmas out to be a pagan holiday. We never had any such issues as that. We went to church and would put on a Christmas program for all our parents to come and see. Twice I got to play Mary.  Everyone I knew did Christmas.  Everyone had a tree and gave out gifts. No one ever judge anyone to be pagan for doing so.  In fact We most likely would have laughed at you for doing so..And people would think there was something wrong with you for not wanting to celebrate Christmas. That is how I grew up. Now it seems everything is an issue. Nothing is just fun anymore. Someone has to make it into an issue. 

That's all I have to say. Than you and Merry Christmas! 

One reason why you never heard about it growing up is probably because we didn't have the Internet back then.  The advent of the Internet has been a double-edged sword giving unbelievers and conspiracy theorists a louder voice than they have never had before.   Most of this stuff was limited to fringe groups that never had a bullhorn for their message.  That has changed with the Internet. 

[other one]

i was reading books about Christmas being Pagan in the 1960's.    Herbert Armstrong wrote several books about it and pretty much should convince people of it's origin....    but that's not going to do any good here for you can spend hours putting something together and others will just say it's a lie....     as i said the conversation is of no use at all.

If I thought someone celebrating Christmas was doing some mortal sin, it might be worth the effort, but each of us has to deal with that question.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, other one said:

i was reading books about Christmas being Pagan in the 1960's.    Herbert Armstrong wrote several books about it and pretty much should convince people of it's origin....    but that's not going to do any good here for you can spend hours putting something together and others will just say it's a lie....     as i said the conversation is of no use at all.

If I thought someone celebrating Christmas was doing some mortal sin, it might be worth the effort, but each of us has to deal with that question.

Armstrong was a false teacher.   And when you look at genuine history and archeology, there is simply no truth to the notion that Christmas is pagan.  There is a lot of junk history and pop history that really has some wild way out ideas and stuff.

[shanee]

its all about worshipping Jesus and God has no problem with that...my bible even says ....Joh 4:23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 

any time there is a big celebration of the Lord...count me in...cant go wrong Worshipping the Lord:) 

Edited December 10, 2016 by shanee
adding stuff

[other one]

12 hours ago, other one said:

i was reading books about Christmas being Pagan in the 1960's.    Herbert Armstrong wrote several books about it and pretty much should convince people of it's origin....    but that's not going to do any good here for you can spend hours putting something together and others will just say it's a lie....     as i said the conversation is of no use at all.

If I thought someone celebrating Christmas was doing some mortal sin, it might be worth the effort, but each of us has to deal with that question.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

8 hours ago, JohnD said:

Communion / Eucharist also has ties to the ancient Egyptians. In a Passover Seder Jesus said the matzoh (afikomen) "this is my body broken for you" and the third cup (of redemption) "this is the new covenant in my blood..." he wasn't establishing the breaking of bread and a cup of wine he was explaining the meaning of the elements of Seder that he soon after fulfilled.  And that as often as you eat THIS bread and drink THIS cup (in Seder) do so in my (Jesus) name and in his memory until he returns.

The Afikomen was a post biblical, post 1st century (likely 2nd or 3rd centuries) addition to the Seder.   Much of the Seder we are familiar with today did not exist in Jesus' day.  There is much about the modern Seder that was added over the centuries.

In fact, there are debates in the Talmud regarding what the Afikomen is. And there is no consensus on what the word means.   The Messianic interpretation is what most Christians adhere to.   But it is not even clear that the Afikomen was originally Matzoh.  According Maimonides, the centuries later tradition of Matzoh being hidden or "stolen" and then found and sold back by the children was a game to keep the children awake since traditional Seders are six hours long in the middle of the night.

So it is really hard to buy into the idea that Communion is pagan.  Frankly, I would not be as concerned about offending people as I would be about offending the Lord with that notion.

[JohnD]

Torah

Deuteronomy 12:32 (NASB95)
32 “Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

Neviim

Revelation 22:18–19 (NASB95)
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Ketuvim

Proverbs 30:5–6 (NASB95)
5 Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
6 Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.

 

[JohnD]

Yeshua the Messiah is the subject and object of Old Testament prophecy.

The feasts find their fulfillment in him.

This is my body...

This is my blood...

Unless you eat my body and drink my blood (Passover Seder in it's prophetic / intentional purpose)...

Over the years I had my reservations about the way Protestants do the Last Supper / Communion (remnants of the Roman Catholic Eucharist). When I heard there were ancient Egyptian rites along these lines for the sun god Rah, I realized my reservations were the prompting of the Holy Spirit and that my long held belief that Communion / the Last Supper was actually a Passover Seder and "as often as you do this..." meant as often as you keep Passover Seder... if he had spoken of New Years as often as you do this or Independence Day... we would know immediately of the specifics he was referring to.

As often as you do this does not mean when you jolly well please to... or in any old form or fashion you choose to do this...

No. A specific feast with specific rules / guidelines at specific intervals.

My only remaining gray area on this subject is... is it ritual or is it revelationary? 

If it is ritual, required in the New Covenant, then it is ordinance at best and works at worst.

Faith plus nothing to get saved. But we are to do good works once we are eternally secure by faith plus nothing.

If it is revelationary (to coin an expression)  the Master may have only been defining the meaning of the Seder and as often as anyone (Jewish believers in particular) kept the Seder they were and are to do so with this definition in heart and mind. 

It appears Paul was referring to the bread and the wine in a congregation of Gentile believers... so as I said... gray area...

Your thoughts?

[Guest shiloh357]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

Afikhomen = Nuach & the flood, the Patriarch Yosef in the well, or the Mitzraiym sojourn (Egyptian slavery), Yehoshua and crossing the Yarden. 

 

From where are you getting that information?