The Holy Trinity?

[guestman]

The development of the Trinity doctrine came over a period of several hundred years. Prominent men, such as the Apostolic Fathers, as well as the Early Church Fathers, were enamored with the philosophies of Greek writers and philosophers such as Aristotle and Plato, and over time introduced false religious ideas, gradually replacing the pure teachings of God's Word.

Though Tertullian (c. 160-230 C.E.) used the Latin word trinitas, the Trinity did not start to come into focus until 325 C.E. at the Council of Nicaea, in which Roman Emperor Constantine, who was not Christian, summoned all the "bishops" of Nicaea (that amounted to about 1,800, but of which only 300 attended).

He felt that his empire was being threatened because of the controversy surrounding who Jesus and God were (a dispute between with two Alexandrian (Egypt) priests, Arius who believed that Jesus was inferior to the Father and Athanasius who believed that they were equal), with the holy playing no role in the controversy at this time.

After 2 months of furious religious debate, Constantine decided that in order to end this "fracas”, he personally would settle the issue and “proposed.....the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘ of one substance with the Father’ “.(Encyclopedia Britannica)

Yet the Trinity doctrine was far from being the formula of “three persons in one Godhead”. Some 56 years later, at the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E., the final pieces were put together to form the Trinity doctrine, that included the holy spirit and whereby Roman Emperor Theodosius I (reigned 379-395 C.E. of the East and of the West from 394-395 C.E., the last Roman emperor to rule a united Roman Empire) banned paganism and imposed so-called “Christianity” as the State religion of the Roman Empire. In so doing, he persecuted the Arians (those who sided with Arius that Jesus was inferior to the Father).

Leading French historian Henri Marrou (1904-1977 C.E.) wrote: “By the end of the reign of Theodosius, Christianity, or to be more precise, orthodox Catholicism, became the official religion of the entire Roman world”. Hence, orthodox Catholicism, not true Christianity, now set the tone for what to believe rather than Scripture, that now included the Trinity.

The word Catholic is defined as :”all-inclusive.....all-embracing”.(2005 Microsoft Encarta Dictionary) Roman Emperor Constantine wanted unity for his empire more than anything else rather teach “the truth”, so he devised the “Catholic” religion that came to view the Trinity as official doctrine.

The Romans were notoriously known for their worship of triads of gods, such as Jupiter (supreme god), Juno (consort of Jupiter) and Minerva (goddess presiding over handicrafts) that corresponded to the Etruscan (these people lived in northwest Italy who were in turn influenced by Greek culture and initially ruled Rome in 6th century B.C.E.) triad of Tinia, Uni, and Menerva.

So, is it little wonder that Roman Emperors incorporated a triad or trinity of gods into so-called “Christianity” or Catholicism that later was the foundation for Christendom, so as to be “all-inclusive”, allowing pagan doctrine and teachings to dictate their directions instead of Bible truth, so that “one size fits all”, pleasing the pagan populace as well as so-called “Christians”. Both parties could now be happy and “join hands”.

Edited February 6, 2017 by guestman

[Ezra]

11 minutes ago, guestman said:

The development of the Trinity doctrine came over a period of several hundred years.

Sounds more like anti-Trinitarian propaganda than anything else.  Since the doctrine of the triune Godhead is already embedded in the first chapter of Genesis, the above statement is completely false and misleading.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:26,27).

Why does it not say "Let me make man in my image, after my likeness"?  Because there is plurality within the Godhead, hence the Hebrew word for God (Elohim) is uni-plural.

[brakelite]

13 hours ago, Ezra said:

Sounds more like anti-Trinitarian propaganda than anything else.  Since the doctrine of the triune Godhead is already embedded in the first chapter of Genesis, the above statement is completely false and misleading.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:26,27).

Why does it not say "Let me make man in my image, after my likeness"?  Because there is plurality within the Godhead, hence the Hebrew word for God (Elohim) is uni-plural.

So the Father said to His Son, "let us make man in our image, in our likeness."

[Ezra]

7 hours ago, brakelite said:

So the Father said to His Son, "let us make man in our image, in our likeness."

Actually the Father said to the Son and to the Holy Spirit the words recorded.  All three were involved in creation (Genesis 1:1,2), but the Creator is shown to be the Son (more precisely the Word -- John 1:1-3).

[brakelite]

So the Spirit of God that you claim was involved in creation...was that the Father, who is Spirit...or the Son who was Spirit pre-incarnation...or a third spirit independent of them...thus there are 3 spirits in heaven? Or should we simply accept what scripture says...the Spirit OF God? Meaning the Spirit that belongs to the Father which He gave to His Son 'without measure' (John 3:34). Creating a third person is unnecessary and superfluous to theologically understanding the nature of God. We as people have spirits, but we do not understand our spirits as being a separate individual person apart and independent of ourselves...we understand that our spirit is intrinsically who we really are; our character, personality, our essential self, is part and parcel of our spirit...so why should we claim God is different? When we speak of the Spirit OF God, as it is described repeatedly throughout all scripture, we know it as the character and mind and power of God do we not? Peter himself spoke of the Spirit that inspired the OT prophets as being the Spirit OF Christ. Does the so-called third person of the trinity belong to Christ? Does the 'third person' belong to the Father, being described often as the Spirit OF God? God is impossible enough to understand without creating unnecessary mysteries with a trinity and making Him even more distant.

Literal Father, literal Son, with a Spirit shared by both...the Father and Son being equal in character and nature, but not in authority or age. The Son, being begotten, had a beginning. The Father had no beginning. Because the Son came forth from the Father, the Son inherited all His Father's character and Spirit, 'for it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell' (Col. 1:9) As the Rock hewn from the mountain, (Daniel 2:34) so that Rock shares the same characteristics as the mountain from which it was cut. Same material, even same age, yet as a personal individual, had a beginning. Such is Jesus. Having the same eternal self-existent life as the Father, (John 5:26) means we may rightly and justifiably name Jesus God. Thus the Father is the God of our God. Less mystery, less perplexity, and still Biblical. Just a different perspective, and the only reason so many claim it heresy is because the creeds say so. The weight of evidence is against the trinity. 

[OneLight]

26 minutes ago, brakelite said:

So the Spirit of God that you claim was involved in creation...was that the Father, who is Spirit...or the Son who was Spirit pre-incarnation...or a third spirit independent of them...thus there are 3 spirits in heaven? Or should we simply accept what scripture says...the Spirit OF God? Meaning the Spirit that belongs to the Father which He gave to His Son 'without measure' (John 3:34). Creating a third person is unnecessary and superfluous to theologically understanding the nature of God. We as people have spirits, but we do not understand our spirits as being a separate individual person apart and independent of ourselves...we understand that our spirit is intrinsically who we really are; our character, personality, our essential self, is part and parcel of our spirit...so why should we claim God is different? When we speak of the Spirit OF God, as it is described repeatedly throughout all scripture, we know it as the character and mind and power of God do we not? Peter himself spoke of the Spirit that inspired the OT prophets as being the Spirit OF Christ. Does the so-called third person of the trinity belong to Christ? Does the 'third person' belong to the Father, being described often as the Spirit OF God? God is impossible enough to understand without creating unnecessary mysteries with a trinity and making Him even more distant.

Literal Father, literal Son, with a Spirit shared by both...the Father and Son being equal in character and nature, but not in authority or age. The Son, being begotten, had a beginning. The Father had no beginning. Because the Son came forth from the Father, the Son inherited all His Father's character and Spirit, 'for it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell' (Col. 1:9) As the Rock hewn from the mountain, (Daniel 2:34) so that Rock shares the same characteristics as the mountain from which it was cut. Same material, even same age, yet as a personal individual, had a beginning. Such is Jesus. Having the same eternal self-existent life as the Father, (John 5:26) means we may rightly and justifiably name Jesus God. Thus the Father is the God of our God. Less mystery, less perplexity, and still Biblical. Just a different perspective, and the only reason so many claim it heresy is because the creeds say so. The weight of evidence is against the trinity. 

How do you see 1 John 5:7?

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

 

[other one]

30 minutes ago, brakelite said:

So the Spirit of God that you claim was involved in creation...was that the Father, who is Spirit...or the Son who was Spirit pre-incarnation...or a third spirit independent of them...thus there are 3 spirits in heaven? Or should we simply accept what scripture says...the Spirit OF God? Meaning the Spirit that belongs to the Father which He gave to His Son 'without measure' (John 3:34). Creating a third person is unnecessary and superfluous to theologically understanding the nature of God. We as people have spirits, but we do not understand our spirits as being a separate individual person apart and independent of ourselves...we understand that our spirit is intrinsically who we really are; our character, personality, our essential self, is part and parcel of our spirit...so why should we claim God is different? When we speak of the Spirit OF God, as it is described repeatedly throughout all scripture, we know it as the character and mind and power of God do we not? Peter himself spoke of the Spirit that inspired the OT prophets as being the Spirit OF Christ. Does the so-called third person of the trinity belong to Christ? Does the 'third person' belong to the Father, being described often as the Spirit OF God? God is impossible enough to understand without creating unnecessary mysteries with a trinity and making Him even more distant.

Literal Father, literal Son, with a Spirit shared by both...the Father and Son being equal in character and nature, but not in authority or age. The Son, being begotten, had a beginning. The Father had no beginning. Because the Son came forth from the Father, the Son inherited all His Father's character and Spirit, 'for it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell' (Col. 1:9) As the Rock hewn from the mountain, (Daniel 2:34) so that Rock shares the same characteristics as the mountain from which it was cut. Same material, even same age, yet as a personal individual, had a beginning. Such is Jesus. Having the same eternal self-existent life as the Father, (John 5:26) means we may rightly and justifiably name Jesus God. Thus the Father is the God of our God. Less mystery, less perplexity, and still Biblical. Just a different perspective, and the only reason so many claim it heresy is because the creeds say so. The weight of evidence is against the trinity. 

John tells us that Jesus existed in the form of God before he became human......    and since several people saw the God of Israel in Moses time and no one has ever seen the Father according to Jesus it seems that Jesus is the Jehovah God of Israel......   but he is not the Father.

Holy Spirit connects us to both the Father and Jesus....    we can't have access to the Spirit without what Jesus did for us and we will never have access to the Father except for the righteousness of Jesus.     We have to have all three to have any of them so they are one for us.   Three with one focus and goal and all work together as one....   they think the same thing and say the same thing   treat us as one........     and ask us to be one with them.

Trinity but no big mystery.

[brakelite]

3 minutes ago, OneLight said:

How do you see 1 John 5:7?

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

 

Trinitarians often claim Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 supports their belief in a Trinity. But this verse in no way affirms the Trinity doctrine which states that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three co-equal, co-eternal beings that make up one God.

Nobody denies there is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

This verse refers to three powers but never says they are one in essence and says nothing about their personality.

It does not say they are three beings,
it does not say they are three in one or one in three,
it does not say these three are the Godhead,
it does not say these three are a Trinity,
it does not say these three are co-equal or co-eternal beings,
it does not say that these three are all God.

And yet some wrongly draw the conclusion that this supports their belief in the Trinity or that the Holy Spirit is another being which is clearly not so.

[brakelite]

27 minutes ago, other one said:

John tells us that Jesus existed in the form of God before he became human......    and since several people saw the God of Israel in Moses time and no one has ever seen the Father according to Jesus it seems that Jesus is the Jehovah God of Israel......   but he is not the Father.

Holy Spirit connects us to both the Father and Jesus....    we can't have access to the Spirit without what Jesus did for us and we will never have access to the Father except for the righteousness of Jesus.     We have to have all three to have any of them so they are one for us.   Three with one focus and goal and all work together as one....   they think the same thing and say the same thing   treat us as one........     and ask us to be one with them.

Trinity but no big mystery.

You do not understand what the 'trinity' actually teaches. According to tradition and the creeds the trinity refers to 3 co-equal co-eternal consubstantial Gods (God the Father...one God; God the Son...two Gods; God the Holy Spirit...three Gods) which equal one God. Yet scripture clearly and unequivocally states that the head of the church is Christ and the head of Christ is God. The trinity is not only a mystery, it is utterly contradictory to any plain reading of scripture.

[OneLight]

1 minute ago, brakelite said:

Trinitarians often claim Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 supports their belief in a Trinity. But this verse in no way affirms the Trinity doctrine which states that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three co-equal, co-eternal beings that make up one God.

Nobody denies there is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

This verse refers to three powers but never says they are one in essence and says nothing about their personality.

It does not say they are three beings,
it does not say they are three in one or one in three,
it does not say these three are the Godhead,
it does not say these three are a Trinity,
it does not say these three are co-equal or co-eternal beings,
it does not say that these three are all God.

And yet some wrongly draw the conclusion that this supports their belief in the Trinity or that the Holy Spirit is another being which is clearly not so.

Nobody is saying that God can manifest Himself in three ways, but that the three are one, which is what I posted.  The Bible presents to us a Father who is God (John 3:16), a Son who is God (Philippians 2:5-8; John 1:1), and a Holy Spirit who is God (Acts 5:3, 4); yet these are not three Gods, but one and the same God.

This may help.